Lucky Bancho and NA raiding problems.

[Awha]

Pretty sure I'm not gonna like what happens, opening this box of worms, but screw it. This thread started off talking about incentives and clear rates. So...

... What's with the bashing on the raid community?

People often bash what they do not understand, or have no interest in. I do not get it though the raiding community is like any other community you have your helpful, neutral, and asshats.

[SargentToughie]

People often bash what they do not understand, or have an interest in.

Pretty much this.

The raiding playerbase has been made into some kind of boogeyman by the people on this message boards.

It's pretty sad, too, because it's a case of people not really understanding the real problem. People use the term "elitist" to describe the people who lock jobs in PFs, or monitor parses like hawks, or demand everybody adjust to their catered strats, but those are just assholes. In reality, you're never actually going to see a legitimate elitist, because most of the time they don't have any actual interest in ever sharing a party with you. I don't really consider myself all that elite, but even I wouldn't be caught dead in an EX primal/Savage party without at least 3ish of my friends there to pitch in. And in the event that I do run with randoms, I don't really waste my time arguing about mistakes or calling people out. Expecting randoms to perform up to my standard is unrealistic, and when you accept randoms into your party, you need to come to terms with the fact that you may end up needing to pick up some extra weight. It comes with the territory.

Assholes give the raiding playerbase a bad name, but even to raiders these same players are still exactly that: assholes. The difference is that people who raid will roll our eyes, kick them, and move on. Meanwhile people that may just be trying out content at that level for the first time, may not have statics, or may not be prepared for the burden of playing at that level end up having an entire chunk of the playerbase negatively tarnished in their mind off of the actions of a few bad apples.

[Alleo]

People often bash what they do not understand, or have no interest in. I do not get it though the raiding community is like any other community you have your helpful, neutral, and asshats.

Or these people got really unlucky and truly had those people in their group. I am quite sure that a lot of raiders are fine but lets not forget that the bad side exists there too. And if you have been hurt by such people you are likely not interested in raiding anymore. If they go and state that every single raider is toxic than that would be false, but if they say that they dont raid anymore because they met such toxic players, its completely in their right to say that because they do exist. Just talking in absolutes is a bad thing.

[Awha]

Or these people got really unlucky and truly had those people in their group. I am quite sure that a lot of raiders are fine but lets not forget that the bad side exists there too. And if you have been hurt by such people you are likely not interested in raiding anymore. If they go and state that every single raider is toxic than that would be false, but if they say that they dont raid anymore because they met such toxic players, its completely in their right to say that because they do exist. Just talking in absolutes is a bad thing.

While that is true, but often times the lack of understanding aspect leads to their poor experience because some conflate elitism as inherently being toxic.

[Hamada]

Pretty much this.

The raiding playerbase has been made into some kind of boogeyman by the people on this message boards.

It's pretty sad, too, because it's a case of people not really understanding the real problem. People use the term "elitist" to describe the people who lock jobs in PFs, or monitor parses like hawks, or demand everybody adjust to their catered strats, but those are just assholes. In reality, you're never actually going to see a legitimate elitist, because most of the time they don't have any actual interest in ever sharing a party with you. I don't really consider myself all that elite, but even I wouldn't be caught dead in an EX primal/Savage party without at least 3ish of my friends there to pitch in. And in the event that I do run with randoms, I don't really waste my time arguing about mistakes or calling people out. Expecting randoms to perform up to my standard is unrealistic, and when you accept randoms into your party, you need to come to terms with the fact that you may end up needing to pick up some extra weight. It comes with the territory.
Assholes give the raiding playerbase a bad name, but even to raiders these same players are still exactly that: assholes. The difference is that people who raid will roll our eyes, kick them, and move on. Meanwhile people that may just be trying out content at that level for the first time, may not have statics, or may not be prepared for the burden of playing at that level end up having an entire chunk of the playerbase negatively tarnished in their mind off of the actions of a few bad apples.

While that is true, but often times the lack of understanding aspect leads to their poor experience because some conflate elitism as inherently being toxic.

And the times you told a raider how to do something in expert? How many times has that lead to a good result? It is mind boggling the number of top savage gear players you meet act like some people doing expert for the first time or simply mouth off to people because they do not know how to talk to others. Yes some people confuse what elitism means. Some people call "toxic" to someone making a suggestion or teaching how to play a basic part of the job. I do not play on the Japanese server, but I bet a problem with NA having less clears is people knowing it is not worth dealing with, when there is no incentive to put your self though that. Why would someone place themselves in an environment that has high risk for "toxicity" for no reward? it will become faceroll in 3-6 months, or complete faceroll in the next expansion when it is so outdated so soon it is WT fodder.

[SargentToughie]

And the times you told a raider how to do something in expert? How many times has that lead to a good result? It is mind boggling the number of top savage gear players you meet act like some people doing expert for the first time or simply mouth off to people because they do not know how to talk to others. Yes some people confuse what elitism means. Some people call "toxic" to someone making a suggestion or teaching how to play a basic part of the job. I do not play on the Japanese server, but I bet a problem with NA having less clears is people knowing it is not worth dealing with, when there is no incentive to put your self though that. Why would someone place themselves in an environment that has high risk for "toxicity" for no reward? it will become faceroll in 3-6 months, or complete faceroll in the next expansion when it is so outdated so soon it is WT fodder.

Being a raider myself, and very rarely running EXR without my friends, I really can't speak with any definitive knowledge about this. That said, I'd be pretty surprised if somebody with, say, a Diamond weapon doesn't understand a part of their job that's so basic that it becomes relevant to even your every day EXR run. It's possible that they were running on their alt jobs, maybe? I'm not saying that it's impossible by any means, I just don't really have enough information to provide more input than that. Sorry.

As for the second part of your comment, I mean, you're pretty much right. As we've gone over in previous pages, WoW has an infinitely superior raiding infrastructure in place in terms of quantity of raid fights, and incentive for partaking in them. As a result, NA raiders that are more interested in actually experiencing the fights themselves just play WoW, because FFXIV's raids have such a tiny window of relevancy that it's not really worth it for most people. Now that being said, I still personally find the Savage fights to be the most fun pieces of content in the game, and I'm really excited to get dug into 4.4 when that comes out. But I totally understand why a majority of the playerbase that values that level of content would find it elsewhere, or would be turned away by other various circumstances.

[Singularity]

...when there is no incentive to put your self though that. Why would someone place themselves in an environment that has high risk for "toxicity" for no reward? it will become faceroll in 3-6 months, or complete faceroll in the next expansion when it is so outdated so soon it is WT fodder.

This is kind of what I was talking about earlier. If a person views content as something you "put yourself through" and needs incentives and rewards, they clearly don't like it. Even if the reward is the best thing in the world, such a person would do the content, but only to the bare minimum required to obtain that reward. They don't enjoy it, and therefore they want to do as little of it as possible and most likely won't be interested in becoming good at it beyond what is required to achieve that bare minimum.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

This is kind of what I was talking about earlier. If a person views content as something you "put yourself through" and needs incentives and rewards, they clearly don't like it. Even if the reward is the best thing in the world, such a person would do the content, but only to the bare minimum required to obtain that reward. They don't enjoy it, and therefore they want to do as little of it as possible and most likely won't be interested in becoming good at it beyond what is required to achieve that bare minimum.

This is often forgotten. In fact, let's take this to its logical extreme and make Savage truly necessary.

- Mounts from O4S, O8S and O12S will only drop if cleared at the minimum ilvl
- There is no longer "catch up" patches. For casual players, your ilvl stops ten below raid gear.

How many players does this incentivize? I wager precisely zero more than those already interested. What will happen is a considerable amount of bitching because now casual players can't faceroll Savage years later for dyeable gear and mounts.

Pretty sure I'm not gonna like what happens, opening this box of worms, but screw it. This thread started off talking about incentives and clear rates. So...

... What's with the bashing on the raid community?

It's easier to bash raiders than acknowledge you aren't good enough to do the content. More often than not, the people who legitimately aren't interested in raiding or can't commit the time aren't the ones crying how toxic raiders are.

[AxlStream]

Players here just hate effort and putting their skills to the test. Raiding is really about that, pushing yourself. Parse runs, solo heal, solo tank runs are just that. Players that are willing to challenge themselves for the sake of entertainment/challenge. It's never been about gear, mounts and other loot for actual raiders.

[Hamada]

This is kind of what I was talking about earlier. If a person views content as something you "put yourself through" and needs incentives and rewards, they clearly don't like it. Even if the reward is the best thing in the world, such a person would do the content, but only to the bare minimum required to obtain that reward. They don't enjoy it, and therefore they want to do as little of it as possible and most likely won't be interested in becoming good at it beyond what is required to achieve that bare minimum.

The fight itself is not the issue I was getting at. When I said "put yourself through" I was referring to dealing with other players, that is why I highlighted the expert remarks. If people can't even take criticism on how to perform better then expert, even some raiders I met either refused to the tips or gave toxic feedback (leading to kicks in both cases) How many times have you met a tank that does not pull monsters to the paralyze ball in the water room in The Swallow's Compass? Last I heard drama over this a triple team premade left after for some reason the others allow the kick to pass on their tank friend then both left? Very weird but the point is, if the general NA player base has a big Russian roulette in pugs with expert, what makes you think people want to try on a grand scale for savage?

Or there is the possibility I am misunderstanding your point and the reason this happens is because of others trying to do the bare minimum, or expecting carry (because you can easily be carried though everything else in this game and the player may not even know they are bad) thus creating stress on the players that can do it, and do not want to deal with players like that.