Lucky Bancho and NA raiding problems.

[RiyahArp]

Lucky Bancho has a recent census out (dated 7-15, linked to in this reddit thread here.

What struck me was that in general, NA show a lot less completion of savage tiers than JP do, to the point of mass divergence.

I'm not mentioning this to bash raiding, but actually the opposite; SE might seriously need to consider incentivizing more people to do raids on the NA servers. I don't think it's a matter of skill, as opposed to desire; a lot of NA simply don't choose to do it, and don't have completion. This also means the whole "trickle small amounts of casual content" may work on JP servers, where many more people do savage anyways, but not on NA, where people don't. I worry it might be a pretty sharp divergence they are ignoring.

Oh, i know people complain about his methodology, but if you look at the general trends, even if raw numbers are more, we still participate much less.

again i know im a fierce critic of raiding, but this isn't here to bash. I read the data and it struck me how divergent we are, and the idea of less casual content because they expect everyone to be doing savage anyways came across my mind. And that they kind of take it for granted everyone will do it, when the data on NA shows to me a lot don't. So maybe they need to look at this and incentivize it more, similar to PvP in a sense.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Its likely a cultural thing. You can clear raids in Raid Finder over there. Good luck doing that here.

NA community is very "Me, Me, Me" while the JP community tends to orient more towards the group.

You get a lot of NA players at 70 who can't even do the DPS people were able to do at 60. Its a lack of effort, lack of care, and lack of wanting to improve ones self. "I got through the content, so I must be good enough" seems to be the standard mindset over here.

[Kazrah]

This isn't really news. This has been a constant things since raiding in general was a thing, and pretty much like Lenneth says, it is indeed a cultural factor at play, and there's neither anything to really change that nor any incentive for devs to make any changes toward this.

[RiyahArp]

But skill among players tends to be equal, period. They would have the same percentage of bad players and poor dps as us. Otherwise the game would be a LOT harder in general to match the skill of the JP playerbase, but SE has put it on a constant trend downwards. I think it really is just desire or incentives/expectations.

This isn't really news. This has been a constant things since raiding in general was a thing, and pretty much like Lenneth says, it is indeed a cultural factor at play, and there's neither anything to really change that nor any incentive for devs to make any changes toward this.

the problem is that if NA and EU do less raiding, SE can't just release content based on JP raiding. Ultimate was an example perhaps; NA hardcore was like "NO, why slow it down?" Maybe though if a lot more JP raid and expect to do it, they have to slow it down to give them a chance. Here its just world firsters and a tiny group anyways who does it, so there's little reason to hold back. So I wonder what will happen if we keep diverging, or if they will have to start trying to interest more NA/EU players into savage.

[Zale]

it's merely due to the fact that in our society, you're more likely to be harassed for being bad on streams/etc. and thus it scares away people from willingly participating. i can see why, i was anxious about raiding when i started to get into it again.

there is a reason to do raiding, it's simple. glamour, gear, meeting new friends, improving at the game, etc. it's just not a lot of people aren't entirely too interested in it and care too much what others will say. i raid because there's nothing better to do in the game, aside from afk crafting all day and browsing elsewhere. i believe if there was a lack of casual content, the more casual players would run out of content and inevitably quit. that's just how i see it tho, i know a lot of my friends are very bored with this tier, mid-core, casual, hardcore, etc.

the drastic difference in ultimate clears is very concerning. a lot of people treat ultimate as completely unclearable and that they'll never have a chance, which is not the case. if you go in with the right mindset, willingness to improve at the game, dedication, etc. then it is possible. but the issue here most people has, is that it takes too much time, and so people don't wanna put in effort. it's a multitude of reasons, but i have a feeling that has a lot to do with it.

my point is: to the people who are afraid of trying raiding, don't be. with the right mindset, you can accomplish a lot more. if you simply just want to play casually, that's your decision. i personally don't think anyone should do ultimate or even raid at all if they have no intention of improving, or aren't open to advice. probably gonna get a lot of backlash for that statement, but maybe take a step back to think about why you aren't clearing. some people can give bad advice, but you should also be actively trying to get better. "but i'm already good at the game" is not an excuse. there's always room for improvement in everyone.

i agree with OP.

[Doozer]

I can't speak for how it is on the JP servers, but people really like to speed through things and always without difficulty in NA. Wipe once on any boss in an alliance raid? Vote to abandon. And they'll try to rush through any part they can, like starting a fight when a whole alliance isn't even close to the area yet, and you always get one rogue DPS in any kind of duty that pulls the boss and causes problems for everyone. So it wouldn't surprise me that challenging content that requires patience and teamwork would be beyond what they're capable of.

I personally just don't bother with the hardest content in the game because I don't need the stress and have health concerns that I'd rather not exacerbate.

[Emstidor]

But skill among players tends to be equal, period. They would have the same percentage of bad players and poor dps as us. Otherwise the game would be a LOT harder in general to match the skill of the JP playerbase, but SE has put it on a constant trend downwards. I think it really is just desire or incentives/expectations.

Even considering roughy equal skill levels, you could make an argument that the JP approach of "Party Finders until you get comfortable with the content, then queue up to get stuff done" is less exclusionary and more pub-friendly than "Find a static willing to learn content with you/handhold you while you learn, then maybe substitute in Party Finder groups in the event your group misses a clear that week".

[KaivaC]

I mean, honestly, what more incentives could you possibly give? Most of the game gears you up so you can even raid. It's on the players themselves to actually take the time to learn how to do their jobs properly. Besides that, motivation is a huge factor. A lot of NA players just don't have an interest in raiding. A good portion of them aren't capable of raiding either - many folks have gone into Savage and have gotten carried, and many of those same players take offense at even the smallest of suggestions to improve.

Side note: I've been avoiding subjects like these for a while, but figured I'd give my own personal thoughts on the matter.

[Kazrah]

But skill among players tends to be equal, period. They would have the same percentage of bad players and poor dps as us. Otherwise the game would be a LOT harder in general to match the skill of the JP playerbase, but SE has put it on a constant trend downwards. I think it really is just desire or incentives/expectations.

It's not individual player skill though, and looking at that completely misses the point. It's the ability to work as a team that JP groups have as an advantage due to the nature of raiding requiring teamwork to function.

[RiyahArp]

Even considering roughy equal skill levels, you could make an argument that the JP approach of "Party Finders until you get comfortable with the content, then queue up to get stuff done" is less exclusionary and more pub-friendly than "Find a static willing to learn content with you/handhold you while you learn, then maybe substitute in Party Finder groups in the event your group misses a clear that week".

yeah, if the expectation though is everyone raids or tries to, you make structures for it.If they don't, the pf approch probably would break down, not enough at one time to force queues to pop. IDK.

It's not individual player skill though, and looking at that completely misses the point. It's the ability to work as a team that JP groups have as an advantage due to the nature of raiding requiring teamwork to function.

They work as a team because its expected everyone does it, I think. When you expect that, you have to compensate more for people.

I mean, honestly, what more incentives could you possibly give? Most of the game gears you up so you can even raid. It's on the players themselves to actually take the time to learn how to do their jobs properly. Besides that, motivation is a huge factor. A lot of NA players just don't have an interest in raiding. A good portion of them aren't capable of raiding either - many folks have gone into Savage and have gotten carried, and many of those same players take offense at even the smallest of suggestions to improve.

Side note: I've been avoiding subjects like these for a while, but figured I'd give my own personal thoughts on the matter.

IDK, I didn't think that far ahead.

I'm not meaning nerfing or anything, but the game doesnt really give you much reason to raid at all. Like the weapons are useless since virtually all content is ilvlcapped, often incredibly low. There are the mounts, but at this point we are drowning in them. Maybe others have better ideas, but like in other games, raiders actively look for new players and ask them to join raiding guilds. Here you are lucky if even your fc asks you.