What jobs are we hoping to see in the next expansion?

[kikix12]

And were that treatment -- an emphasis on add more interesting gameplay and satisfying design -- permitted to tanks and healers, I'd be right behind you.

Dancer is so much different from other healers esthetically and thematically, that them making a dancer healer and not making it somehow unique would be quite a challenge. I mean, another caster is just going to be another caster. But a non-caster doing what's normally considered a magical feat? That requires some thought put into it to be reasonable, so unless they want to make a completely different class and just slap on "Dancer" on its title...yeah. They'll have to go original or go bust.

(...)if only because that role offers it a semblance of uniqueness in niche and allotment/balance of outputs that this game does not yet effectively allow tanks or healers.

And yet...no one really seems to care for healers/tanks to have some uniqueness to them in any way, shape or form. Tanks and healers are bland not only in mechanics, but also thematically, for the most part. Every cool class concept seems to be dragged into the DPS tree.


This is an MMO game. Comparing the jobs to a single-player game, where tanks or healers archetypes don't really exist in the same form, is bad. But there needs to be tanks and healers in an MMO that is based on the role trinity. Something needs to do that. Giving more generic "knight" sort for tanks and generic magical healing is just going to be extremely boring even beyond the mechanics. Healer/tank playing players want some really cool class concepts to be sent their way too.

[Shurrikhan]

Dancer is so much different from other healers esthetically and thematically, that them making a dancer healer and not making it somehow unique would be quite a challenge.

I believe there is at this point enough evidence to easily wager they'd be up to that challenge.

I mean, another caster is just going to be another caster. But a non-caster doing what's normally considered a magical feat? That requires some thought put into it to be reasonable, so unless they want to make a completely different class and just slap on "Dancer" on its title...yeah. They'll have to go original or go bust.

I don't mean to merely pull on semantic threads here, but aren't Paladins and Dark Knights already examples of that? And yet that fact alone holds almost no differentiating mechanics; their CD flow, banking, and sense of prepositioning as made necessary by certain encounters does far more to influence the feeling of their gameplay then whether the swordsman is "ooh! ahhh!" spending GCDs on damage that happens to be classified as magic. Types aren't really felt. Their consequences are. And there is a long stretch between simply being different do to x factor and feeling different -- having different opportunities/responsibilities bestowed/thrust upon you. You can't assume that the prior will cause the latter.

And while I'd love to say sure, of course it's a case of "go original or go bust"... that still leaves the option of going bust -- and, as you're latter half posits, being satisfied with that.

As for the latter half of your response...

And yet...no one really seems to care for healers/tanks to have some uniqueness to them in any way, shape or form. Tanks and healers are bland not only in mechanics, but also thematically, for the most part. Every cool class concept seems to be dragged into the DPS tree.

This is an MMO game. Comparing the jobs to a single-player game, where tanks or healers archetypes don't really exist in the same form, is bad. But there needs to be tanks and healers in an MMO that is based on the role trinity. Something needs to do that. Giving more generic "knight" sort for tanks and generic magical healing is just going to be extremely boring even beyond the mechanics. Healer/tank playing players want some really cool class concepts to be sent their way too.

I... think you're preaching to the choir here? ...Though the questions below should clarify this more thoroughly.

no one really seems to care for healers/tanks to have some uniqueness to them in any way, shape or form.

So, people are content with homogeneity.

Every cool class concept seems to be dragged into the DPS tree.

Which is why I said, as things are now, only the DPS role seems remotely capable of giving Dancer any semblance of truly interesting (and, though of secondary importance, unique) gameplay -- whether that be based in part on former games or not.

This is an MMO game. Comparing the jobs to a single-player game, where tanks or healers archetypes don't really exist in the same form, is bad.

By that logic, imagining Dancer in any setting but XI and XIV's is inherently flawed. I can understand where you're coming from, but I fundamentally disagree.

But there needs to be tanks and healers in an MMO that is based on the role trinity.

"But"? What was inverted between "MMO classes can only be modelled after MMOs" and "Tanks and healers can only be built from the role trinity template"? I again disagree with both statements, but they seem cohesive to each other. Why the "but"? What am I missing?

Giving more generic "knight" sort for tanks and generic magical healing is just going to be extremely boring even beyond the mechanics.

So, people are content with homogeneity, but also bored by it? I'd usually consider these mostly mutually exclusive. (Granted, one can be contentedly bored, so there's that...)

Healer/tank playing players want some really cool class concepts to be sent their way too.

Again, I'm all for that. But a cool concept in theory does not necessarily make a cool concept in actual play.
Consider:

1. Take all the selling points one can imagine -- from sources new or old -- for a class like Dancer.
2. Imagine, thoroughly, how many of those things can survive being sifted into the healer/tank trinity templates. Or, how many are derivable directly from a tank/healer template as used for the other tanks and healers?

I'd wager the factors able to survive or be reverse-engineered through XIV's templates would be both a pitiful minority and insufficient for cohesive and satisfying gameplay.

Now, one could take the surviving factors, iterate upon them, and come up with something that is gameplay-enjoyable. And if that small chance actually meets success, I'd be happy with that. But I'd be in at most a thin majority; plenty others would despise the bastardization of a concept with more potential, seeing its implementation as a waste of all the things greater that the concept could have accomplished.


To be fair, we could still make a lot more interesting healers and tanks out of the role trinity if the community would allow it. But thus far, any advantage or disadvantage at any juncture of any encounter is met with serious criticism. A healer at least has a cohealer to compensate, more so than any main tank does, but we find that role's criticisms only faintly more lenient.

Consider the strengths and weaknesses of WoW's healing specializations: Restoration Shaman, Restoration Druid, Holy Paladin, Holy Priest, Discipline Priest, and Mistweaver Monk. Each of those has notably different niches, and though many now have a speedy mana-inefficient heal alongside a standard, slower, more mana-efficient one, most other parts of their toolkits do not overlap.

Personally, in those terms I see the ideal niche of Dancer as a blend between the Paladin, Monk, Shaman, and maybe the Discipline, in descending order of proximity -- healing concentrated in bursts of activity with notable downtime in which to weave supportive effects through combat, catching the momentum of its skills -- damaging or curative/supportive alike -- to upsurge output and play the synergist to its team, and finally -- during the effects of at least one song -- go ham on enemies as a way to heal those around him through that damage dealt. Altogether, it make for a generally balanced yet truly unique (pseudo)-healer job.

But that doesn't allow for consistent Cure-II-equivalents at x GCDs, raid heal ability blown at y minutes and z seconds, or shields of strength A or HoTs of strength B. And thus, to all spammable extents and purposes, it would be just a pseudo-healer, and just by distinction from the mostly indistinct other healers, it'd likely be considered overpowered in any situation that requires little overall healing, for its simultaneous output, and underpowered for any significant content. While I feel that for anything shorter in difficulty than Savage or greater in party count than a 4-man these perceived imbalances would be survivable, it's the community you'd likely have to convince even more than the developers, because, as -- as best I can understand from your words -- no one really seems to care that tanks and healers are just different slants of the same template, rather than built from their own style first and balanced only later, even while most of us are also simultaneously disappointed somewhat by each additional healer or tank that meets only those lackluster expectations. Uniqueness, or actual design from job concept first, with the template only a final check for parity, is inherently too unique at this point not to be seen as imbalanced. And even I'll agree with the community that a job's imbalance (especially towards overpoweredness), if general or frequent enough, can feel worse than the job never being added. That's the situation you're building for.

Without do steps to diversify the healers we have, is that really something you want to bring Dancer into, anywhere near its full potential?

I want a Dancer, a real Dancer -- not just in any XI traditional sense but in terms of every ounce of fun you can milk out of every concept, combat, lore, animation, quirks, and tangential elements to each, from the idea of a dancer. But without something in class design and how it's perceived budging beforehand -- which I want regardless of Dancer being added or not -- I honestly feel like being a supportive DPS akin to a Bard or Ninja will at least cut out fewer of its unique and interesting mechanics than would, say, a healer.

[Deathrose88]

exactly as shurrikhan says is what I'm worried about when we talk about making dancer a healer.... in theory it may work but will it be the best fit for the job? It's also like we were considering possible making samurai a tank... could it have been done? Sure.... but is it the best fit for the job?... no it's not and thus it ended up being a cool dps. I really don't feel dancer's place is as a healer no matter how much people may want it to be so.... I hope the dev team heeds our words and see the logic in why dancer and all it's uniqueness fits far better as a dps than it ever will as a healer.

[Gemina]

exactly as shurrikhan says is what I'm worried about when we talk about making dancer a healer.... in theory it may work but will it be the best fit for the job? It's also like we were considering possible making samurai a tank... could it have been done? Sure.... but is it the best fit for the job?... no it's not and thus it ended up being a cool dps. I really don't feel dancer's place is as a healer no matter how much people may want it to be so.... I hope the dev team heeds our words and see the logic in why dancer and all it's uniqueness fits far better as a dps than it ever will as a healer.

I for one, am not inclined to believe that a job has to be made into a DPS job to be interesting. Maybe that is not the direct statement being made, but it is the impression that is given off when we speak of where a job 'fits', which is subjective to the preferred playstyle of the person that wants it in the game.

The devs can't just keep adding DPS job to the game because they can't figure out how to implement a truly different and diverse healer and tank. Between the last two expansions, DPS jobs were increased by three, while healers and tanks got one a piece. Even though I think the split is pretty even-steven between healer and DPS mains, I think the cries will be louder heard from those who want to heal with this job if it is not made so.

I can say this though, I would sure hate to be the guy that has to make that call.

[Deathrose88]

Well answer me this.... normally healers are able to throw out heals at command via their cure I cure II spells ( not including OGCD) even if we let dancer melee to heal.... you really think something like that will stand in something like savage where your heals can't be bound to a completed combo? It just feels like a disaster in the making a shadow of what dancer can really be if we focus on the martial art of the job. As I mentioned before I am with you that healers and tanks (imo healers moreso) need something more engaging.... healing as it is now is snoresvill even when you are trying to maximize dps on top of it. They need something fresh, but this would be like trying to make bard healer.

[Gemina]

Well answer me this.... normally healers are able to throw out heals at command via their cure I cure II spells ( not including OGCD) even if we let dancer melee to heal.... you really think something like that will stand in something like savage where your heals can't be bound to a completed combo? It just feels like a disaster in the making a shadow of what dancer can really be if we focus on the martial art of the job. As I mentioned before I am with you that healers and tanks (imo healers moreso) need something more engaging.... healing as it is now is snoresvill even when you are trying to maximize dps on top of it. They need something fresh, but this would be like trying to make bard healer.

Even if DNC is broken upon release, the devs will fix it.

The consensus for healer optimization is already "DPS until you have to heal". This is absolute in all group content from dungeons to savage, and applies to all of our current healers. Mitigative abilities via shields is more advanced healing that requires SCHs and noct ASTs to know fights and/or be very familiar with mechanics if they don't. The game's optimal healers already put this into practice. They are all ripe for a more intricate and sophisticated DPS gimmick that brings something new to the table. Trust me, a conceived worst case scenario where the job is only 'good enough' to be in savage is actually better than a more likely scenario of the job being just 'good enough' to keep raids healed while pumping out more DPS than any other healer. This will boot all other healers right out of savage.

I will not argue that the devs will have far more flexibility with the design of DNC if they chose to make it a DPS. However, such is true for any job they introduce into the game. That kind of flexibility basically gives them the ability to design DNC anyway they want to and make it a plug 'n play. This dev team was once challenged with rebooting FFXIV from the ground up. They did it. An unfortunate coincidence of this success are high expectations to overcome additional challenges in the future. That is the challenge they have with the DNC job, and they know it.

The devs boxed themselves in a corner. I believe they knew this when many people mistook Lysa as being a DNC with the 4.0 teasers. Hell, they even admit it in her minion description. They inadvertently rose the demand for DNC to be in the game, but since no new healer came with 4.0, the pressure to make DNC a healer is far greater than to make it a DPS. Then add the aforementioned challenge of doing so. The silver lining is DNC actually has the potential to bring something new to the healing community, while pushing DPS players wanting to give their go at healing more rewarding incentive to do so. It is a VERY good thing and in the devs best interest to incentivize the other roles so that the even the most dedicated will waver and leave their comfort zones to give them a go.