Tales from Duty Finder: Some make you laugh, some make you cry. Let's vent.

[Maeka]

Someone is touchy.

If you wanna jump into higher level content with no experience you are going to have to face the consequences of that. You cannot expect the playerbase as a whole to except you cannot perform in higher level content because you wanted to pay for your level instead of learning as you go.

Expecting everyone to conform to YOUR level of expertise is what elitism is, for both the skilled and the unskilled. I am not saying to git gud, I am saying that if you don't want to learn your job early on or at a pace that suits your native abilities, do not expect everyone to bend over and submit to your own lack of effort and expect the kicks and criticism that comes with it. Is that constructive enough for ya?

^^
This, pretty much.

I mean, if you are playing a Healer, or a Tank, then you know.... if you're not familiar with the role (let alone the class!), then common sense would tell you that you should practice that stuff in lower level dungeons before you jump into a Level 50 dungeon?

Yes, Jump Potions and PotD exist, but that doesn't mean you can't Q up for something like Tam-Tara or something just to make sure you got the basic concepts down before deciding that something like Amdapor Keep is where you ought to be trying to learn how to heal.

If a player decides not to put any kind of effort into learning how to actually play (which PotD does NOT teach you), and you jump into a dungeon, then you expect people to get irate with your lack of skill and knowledge of how to do your job. That's not Elitism on their part, it's a purposeful lack of effort on yours.

[tinythinker]

Since the topic comes up in various forms and has been all over the last couple of pages of this thread, keep in mind that everyone has different standards for DF and DF roulettes. I am not always a fan of group content in this game because some people go into DF expecting a speed run every time. Others go in expecting people to have refined automatic responses to all mechanics if there is no bonus notice, or if someone has one or more job to 70. Others claim that they just want "some basic notion of the role", "an effort", and "a willingness to learn". Others go in expecting to be carried while using auto-follow.

I had two healer jobs to 60 when that was cap, and had all three healer jobs to 70 not long after Stormblood launched. At that time there was still lots of ARR content I hadn't done much of or even at all (still true when it comes to raids and a few other things). Even more stuff I hadn't (+ haven't) seen much of from Heavensward dungeons and trials (and none of the raids). But I had no newb bonus and some jobs to 70, so I'm going to be comfortable and good at all the "old stuff", right? Except I play on and off, which means I forget a lot while I'm away. I do try, and I know the basic of my jobs and roles, but I also know I often am not at the level other party member seem to want everyone to be at. *Especially* with SB stuff. I asked for lots of advice, tried to practice, and got burned out. So maybe I shoudn't be a healer. Haven't used those jobs in months. Needed a long break.

Instead, I've been slowly, casually taking damage dealers jobs to 50. Only Black Mage is left and it's at 46. Running ARR dungeons so much and so regularly, none of the under-50 dungeons make me nervous anymore as any damage dealing job (well, I haven't unlocked Samurai, as it starts at 50). I don't know the technical stuff well enough to tank those dungeons, but, in terms of running through them I can generally tell as a dps if I am doing OK and even if I am not my familiarity takes away the anxiety I used to have for some of them. I'm mulling whether to try to take those jobs up to 60 the same way. But I am in no rush to go back to SB stuff. Hopefully there is some damage dealer job I click with enough to be good at it at 70 so I don't feel like it's "heal or nothing" for new content.

I've seen plenty of players who appear, to me, to be clueless or inexperienced or selfish or lazy. I can't know for sure that they are. I do understand being bothered by people who don't know how to find the AoE button for heals or damage, or who only do AoE heals or only do single-target heals (maybe no heals at all!), or who don't know what hate is as a tank in a 60-something dungeon, or who use level 20 gear pieces in a level 50 dungeon. It sucks to be stuck with that, especially if that person is rude or doesn't reply. I get it. But we all have different standards for an acceptable run in DF, so I've found myself more than a couple of times being on the side of things that people might complain about here. I'm not against venting in threads like this (it can be very cathartic! ), or correcting people in the game/offering advice (good on you for being helpful). But from my position, if they could use the help, it doesn't hurt to offer it. You don't have to, of course, if you are busy or just don't feel like it. If you do and they don't want it, though, it doesn't help to tear into them, because another player who isn't sure of themselves might feel some of the heat you are launching at someone else

I try to do my job/role as well as I can with the level of time, interest, and ability I have in order to be considerate of others, but I will fall short of the expectations of some people. Others will fall short of mine. I am only responsible for me, though. I can't do anything about other people's expectations, knowledge, experience, ability, or effort. Nor can they do anything about mine. Just accept it, offer advice, or kick. That's it. That's what it comes down to. And it's DF -- there's a reason the roulettes have a big daily bonus. It's to make up for new and returning and forgetful players as well as those who don't try or who are just waaaaaaaay out there.

Try to have fun in your DF runs, and if something really stupid or annoying happens remember that at least you'll have a good story to share here.

[Maeka]

@tinythinker: But you at least have a basic grasp of how to do your job, and you at least have a concern of "am I doing this okay?" and that's just not something I see in a healer who is only using half of their toolkit. When I am healing and somebody dies, the first thought that comes to my mind is "Did I do something wrong? Could I have used something to prevent that?"

If I were to show up to a dungeon and I'm only using half of my spells, I'd be like "I'm probably not doing this right... I have these buttons for a reason.. when should I be using them?" and I'd try to experiment.

Well, the only exception I can find is Cure3 on WHM. I've still not really understood when you should use Cure3 instead of Medica, lol. But that's just me. I can still heal just fine without it tho. But that's not like going to a dungeon and casting nothing but Cure and Cure2 and not even touching Medica even though your whole group is half dead.

You'd think at some point when people are dropping dead, such a healer would or should ask themselves "There's got to be a better way to do this..." instead of having to singularly heal people one by one.

I mean, if you go way back to Baby Ifrit, or heck, Halatali, or Lady Amandine, surely a healer would have seen the need for AoE healing? That's just me I guess.

Now obviously there's always gonna be lazy people and you can't cure laziness. But we're talking about people who want to do good but have no idea how.

[tinythinker]

@tinythinker: But you at least have a basic grasp of how to do your job, and you at least have a concern of "am I doing this okay?" and that's just not something I see in a healer who is only using half of their toolkit. When I am healing and somebody dies, the first thought that comes to my mind is "Did I do something wrong? Could I have used something to prevent that?"

If I were to show up to a dungeon and I'm only using half of my spells, I'd be like "I'm probably not doing this right... I have these buttons for a reason.. when should I be using them?" and I'd try to experiment.

Well, the only exception I can find is Cure3 on WHM. I've still not really understood when you should use Cure3 instead of Medica, lol. But that's just me. I can still heal just fine without it tho. But that's not like going to a dungeon and casting nothing but Cure and Cure2 and not even touching Medica even though your whole group is half dead.

You'd think at some point when people are dropping dead, such a healer would or should ask themselves "There's got to be a better way to do this..." instead of having to singularly heal people one by one.

I mean, if you go way back to Baby Ifrit, or heck, Halatali, or Lady Amandine, surely a healer would have seen the need for AoE healing? That's just me I guess.

Now obviously there's always gonna be lazy people and you can't cure laziness. But we're talking about people who want to do good but have no idea how.

Again, I can't speak for others in specific cases since I wasn't there and haven't talked to them. As for what I wrote some people may say, "Well, I would love to have you as a healer then, tiny" and maybe or maybe not when they see me in action.

My point isn't to excuse anything. It's that based on our experiences, desires, assumptions and so on we all have some notion in our head of what other people should know or do based on things like their item level, number of jobs to 70, no bonus, wearing glamour, sprout or no sprout, etc. Our assumptions and standards are not universal. Some people expect or demand more than us, other people expect or require less. If they're upset with us because they demand more, we complain. If they're upset with us or we're upset with them because their standard (or capacity) is less than our own, we complain. I am not suggesting who has reasonable or unreasonable standards. People can always discuss that. I've posted mine before.

In terms of people who want to get better seeming to be off track, the only reason to wonder why they haven't already learned something without asking them is to try to guess why they aren't performing better (which may or may not lead to talking about how well the game prepares players). Often that kind of second-hand speculation about "Why would(n't) they...?" results in labeling players clueless, lazy, level-skipper, etc. We probably won't know the reason "Why?", but we can kindly tell them "Hey, just to help, did you know...?" What they do with that is their choice, and we can't control it. If they ignore the advice or get upset, that is their issue to deal with, so we have to choose "put up with how they are playing" or "kick them". You would have to choose that for me if I wasn't up to your standards as well. Some players who found me lacking by their standards have chosen to kick me, others to insult me (yet put up with me by completing the run with me in the party), others just put up with me. When I have met or exceeded their standards, similar results -- comms, praise, or just accepted it with no comment.

As for Cure 3, I don't use it much because (no surprise) I'm not a cutting edge raider. But if your party is somewhat bunched or stacked, and everyone just took a huge hit (and more damage is coming in), it can be a lifesaver (especially if you get the overcure proc on Cure 2 which cuts the cost of Cure 3 in half). But for the content I do (ooooooold raids like Syrcus Tower, regular trials, and regular dungeons) it's usually a waste of a slot with Medica, Assize, and/or Plenary Indulgence.



EDIT: Technically in addition to "accept it" or "kick" people can take a penalty and leave, but if it's just one person perceived as blowing it then more often than not the answer is "kick".

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

Well, the only exception I can find is Cure3 on WHM. I've still not really understood when you should use Cure3 instead of Medica, lol.

Cure 3 is more useful in raid/extreme/savage+ content when mechanics force you to stack up more, but the general premise is that Cure 3 is close to 2x as strong as medica for about 1.5x the cost, so you use it if your party is stacked close up and need a powerful heal dropped before more damage incomes and finishes them off instead of 2x medica. 90% of the content in the game doesn't really need the use of it though.

[tinythinker]

Cure 3 is more useful in raid/extreme/savage+ content when mechanics force you to stack up more, but the general premise is that Cure 3 is close to 2x as strong as medica for about 1.5x the cost, so you use it if your party is stacked close up and need a powerful heal dropped before more damage incomes and finishes them off instead of 2x medica. 90% of the content in the game doesn't really need the use of it though.

Yup, it has it's place but it's very understandable if people aren't familiar with it. But for those who have trouble doing the math on the tool-tips (or who don't read them and assume 3 must be better because it's higher than 1 and 2), it can be a costly mistake to use it regularly. Kind of like "Fire 3 must be better than Fire 1 and 2." It makes sense why it might appear that way at a glance, but ends up being a needless mana drain.

[Kacho_Nacho]

I have enjoyed reading the last two pages. They brought up some pretty good points.

What I'm taking away from this discussion is that you should make an effort to know your job. Also, one should not queue for content markedly above one's comfort level. There is plenty of opportunity to hone your skills before jumping into extreme content.

Good point about Cure 3. It's a niche spell; but, when you need it, it's fantastic.

[aesteval]

By the time you are level 50, as they pointed out earlier, you are no longer "new". Heck by the time you are 40 you are not new. I understand everyone has a learning curve but if you don't know your job by the time you are 50 levels in the fault does not lie in everyone else.

How long does the sprout status last now?

[Frizze]

How long does the sprout status last now?

A lot longer then that. If i remember its up to royal menagerie, or something like 400 hours /played. Doesnt matter. Im a believer that if you que for the higher level group content then theres a certain minimum skill floor you should be able to meet(the basics of your job). In a group of friends you can be a thunder mage, an auto-attack tank, or whatever other ridiculous thing you want. The game doesnt do a great job of teaching everything(the hall of the intermediate idea thats been tossed around repeatedly would be a good start), but im not asking for everything from randoms. I dont need to see optimum dps rotations, but A rotation(rather then random buttons) is a good start. Not perfect healing, but some appropriate spells going out(is everyone hurting? aoe - is it just the tank? dont aoe). Tanks dont need ideal CD usage and perfect pulls/enmity, but they should do more then single target one guy without using any skills.

[SannaR]

Lol Speaking of Cure 3 I had a whm one time miss use it. At 1st I hadn't noticed it as I was on a dps, but after the 2nd "wait I have no mp" slow downs I wondered why they were running out of mp so dang fast with a tank that was using their CDs and not making the low leveled dungeon a speed pull. Which made me watch them and that's how I learned that instead of using either Medica they'd use Cure 3 and only get the tank most of the time. So I did tell them to stop using it because it's range sucks for aoe but they didn't listen. Tank almost died on the last boss because the whm had no mp and also didn't know that lucid is also a mp refresh. Or have an ether on them. Thankfully the other dps or myself lbed the boss and we finished the run. Yes, it's also bad for mp management but there was so much to try to correct with that healer that I'd of been fine if they had just stopped trying to use it for aoe heals. We really do need an intermediate hall.