Being a bad mentor(we should be able to report ppl for being a bad mentor)

[LalafellDown]

Snip.

They don’t have too help based on SE terms, doesn’t matter if he has a mentor status or not. To also point out he was there to help by queuing up. Him being present in the mentor roulette is a form of mentorship help. So knowing what he was getting in to he still queues for the roulette.

3.2 Disruption. You may not in any way disrupt or interfere with the Game experience of other players, including the disruption of Square Enix's computers and servers.

If the disruption rule applies to all players then the mentor is innocent. SE will have to play judge on this one, but can’t since we’re only getting OP’s side of the story only way the mentor would be in trouble is if they harassed another player and there was text proof. Being a bad player also can be reported.

The mentor has every right to say no when they want to because it would disrupt their game play experience. Doesn’t matter what we think, that’s SE’s rules.

[NephthysVasudan]

<snip>

You just don't get it do you.

And you already contradicted yourself every which way.


Look the bottom line is this -
If the Mentor shows up and says nothing...and just does their thing and leaves. No foul no harm done.
If the Mentor opens their damn mouth and says anything that is not an positive example of the player-base in terms of experience and starts verbally abusing people...they are twice damned more so than any player who verbally abuses others. This is a FACT...not up for debate or discussion or a Argument....don't believe me? Talk to a GM.

There is no "grey area" in terms of disruption....if you disrupt the duty...your in violation of ToS. Period.
If the Mentor didn't want to help - they should have kept their damn mouth shut. Period.
Can't be faulted if you don't say anything now can you.
Beyond that...the rest is just a waste of time debating over.
And no..being a bad player cannot be reported...please bother to read before you say such things.
You can be a horrible player..and still not be disrupting the dungeon in SE's eyes. We see it every bloody day.
Bad Player is incredably "Subjective" in itself..good luck reporting "bad players" if that's how you think it works.
Again - Mentors should be ready to help if they choose to put the badge on and show up in mentor roulete. But that is not how it works.
So all we can do is report them when they start talking trash and being a "Bad example" in terms of refusal to assist.

A Mentor saying "A waste of time" is a report-able offense in my eyes.
SE doesn't think helping others is a "Waste of time"
If he thought it was a waste of time..he should have exited without saying one bloody word.

Can't take the heat as a mentor? Get out of the kitchen...don't bother coming back.
The badge is egocentric anymore these days...and its depressing enough.

Are Mentors required to teach? No...but they should be.
Are Mentors held to a higher standard? YES.
So if they start talking...bad mouthing...being negative? They be in trouble.
Are they expected to know everything? NO.
This is why a Mentor should say "Hey uh..new to this...sorry in advance"
Can't be blamed for anything at that point. Can they still be bad? Yep.
But if they are polite....and just do their thing..like every other player...again...not a bad thing in SE's eyes.

The main crux here is behavior and attitude towards players.
The rest is wishful thinking in terms of what a Mentor SHOULD be. But this isn't a thing that's enforced.
Until such time it is...all we can do is make sure SE is aware of the foul mouthed/bad attitude crown wearing ego tripping morons who like to show up for the "bonus" and leave without lifting a finger.

There are great mentors mind you...I know quite a few.
But they are outgunned...and out manned by egocentric crown badges.

If they want to get their bonus - they best keep quiet...and just carry on. Because I will take great pleasure in spotlighting bad mentors who bad mouth.

Oh and for the record... "queuing up" is not "Helping out" Not by a long shot.
Anyone can push a little button.
Bothering to give a damn and help people clear content...is an entirely different matter.
And yes...people don't like being told their wrong....and yes...those who watch guides should know their stuff..and those who are deep into the game should know their basics..but people are still human beings...they WILL...make mistakes.
Even Mentors.

But its no excuse for refusing to render aid.
The point of a Mentor is to Mentor...not to strut your stuff like a peacock. When SE starts taking a hard line on this...I'll be a much happier Au Ra to be sure.

[HyoMinPark]

3.2 Disruption. You may not in any way disrupt or interfere with the Game experience of other players, including the disruption of Square Enix's computers and servers.

If the disruption rule applies to all players then the mentor is innocent. SE will have to play judge on this one, but can’t since we’re only getting OP’s side of the story only way the mentor would be in trouble is if they harassed another player and there was text proof. Being a bad player also can be reported.

The mentor has every right to say no when they want to because it would disrupt their game play experience. Doesn’t matter what we think, that’s SE’s rules.

The mentor disrupted the OP's gaming experience, too. I hope you realize that. OP did everything right by researching the fight prior, but that can still leave questions and/or confusion over something once you see it in action. The "mentor" saying "you aren't worth me time, I don't want to teach, I only want my mentor mount" is in the wrong. This isn't someone who needs a mentor title as they only want it for the rewards, not to actually assist players and try to be a positive influence in the community. I said it earlier, but SE made a terrible mistake by locking incentives behind mentorship.

The mentor was in direct contradiction of two of the Mentor guidelines you posted: providing gameplay advice/assistance when asked, and being an example of great player etiquette. I don't understand how you fail to see that. But you try to defend your position with "this is only one side of the story". While it is, why start assuming the OP is being dishonest? Especially after they came back in this thread and apologized for any upset they caused.

I know there are crappy sprouts and new players out there, but the OP has given zero reason to consider them one of these awful sprouts. There are also just as many crappy mentors out there as well. I've met them on my main and my beansprout alts. And I understand a lot of good ones have been beat into the ground via verbal abuse, but still. Telling someone they "aren't worth my time" when they ask a question is a very rude thing to do, in my opinion.

Honestly, the best thing SE can do is just remove this system all together. It has done nothing productive for this game if forum threads about it are to be believed.

[LalafellDown]

The mentor disrupted the OP's gaming experience, too. I hope you realize that. OP did everything right by researching the fight prior, but that can still leave questions and/or confusion over something once you see it in action. The "mentor" saying "you aren't worth me time, I don't want to teach, I only want my mentor mount" is in the wrong. This isn't someone who needs a mentor title as they only want it for the rewards, not to actually assist players and try to be a positive influence in the community. I said it earlier, but SE made a terrible mistake by locking incentives behind mentorship.

OP's text: "he refused to tell anything and said that this wasn't worth his time because he only wanted the mount." so Mentor didn't talk, his time was valuable and his goal is clear.

Mentor was playing the game he doesn't have to provide advice if the following rule applies and it does: "3.2 Disruption. You may not in any way disrupt or interfere with the Game experience of other players, including the disruption of Square Enix's computers and servers." Was OP seeking advice? Doesn't matter. if 3.2 Disruption is the law of the land then it applies to mentors as well. Mentor didn't talk, his time was valuable and his goal is clear. Mentors experience was being attacked is it not? if he didnt want to help.

The point is that rule 3.2 is clearly applies to everyone in every way no matter how we may think otherwise. Doesn't matter what mentor said or OP said as long as they weren't harassing each other with words or cursing at each other in any way, that has a different rule #. Rule 3.2 applies to both. OP wanted help, mentor said no, why because it hinders his game experience, he wants that mount, his time is valuable, doesn't matter if he is a mentor or not rule 3.2. states "other players" that includes our mentor here. Mentor didn't provide any advice so it hindered OP's experience. So whose wrong? neither is wrong because rule 3.2 protects both players experience (whatever experience that may be they're both customers and can play as they will as long as they're following rule 3.2 as well) even if they're opposite experiences. You cant force even a mentor to do something if they don't want to because rule 3.2 protects them in their mentor game experience.

If rule 3.2 didn't exist then the mentor rules would be the #1 rules for the mentors to follow, but as of right now rule 3.2 comes first. Whether he should be a mentor or not, is decided by rule 3.2.

He can be a mentor and not give advice if he chooses not to because it may hinder his experience, especially when another player in involved as OP was.

SE needs to add: "other players except for mentor's experience" to the end of rule 3.2. otherwise it covers mentors experience too

[HyoMinPark]

OP's text: "he refused to tell anything and said that this wasn't worth his time because he only wanted the mount." so Mentor didn't talk, his time was valuable and his goal is clear.

And how is his time more or less valuable than someone who was just asking a question? Does he have a certain privilege that makes his time more important than a lowly new person’s? Why are you even trying to defend this when he directly violated the same rule you keep quoting?

Mentor was playing the game he doesn't have to provide advice if the following rule applies and it does: "3.2 Disruption. You may not in any way disrupt or interfere with the Game experience of other players, including the disruption of Square Enix's computers and servers."

So you’re saying it’s okay for this person to disrupt another person’s gaming experience because he’s protected under this ToS rule? So is the OP. So are any other sprouts present in that party. What makes the mentor more important than them? You do realize that you are devaluing the OP and the other players in that party, and defending a very poor attitude.

To be honest, it’s silly if someone considers a person asking a question to be that person “disrupting their gaming experience”. Are people not allowed to ask questions in someone’s presence? Unless the OP was being unnecessarily hostile, they did nothing wrong by asking a simple question.

The mentor that was described here (selfish, unwilling to help, unwilling to give advice, unwilling to be a positive influence in the community, just wanting the rewards) is part of the reason why people dislike this Mentor System and the legitimate Mentors within it.

Was OP seeking advice? Doesn't matter. if 3.2 Disruption is the law of the land then it applies to mentors as well. Mentor didn't talk, his time was valuable and his goal is clear. Mentors experience was being attacked is it not? if he didnt want to help.

So, the OP’s time is not valuable? Their goal of clearing was not clear? Their experience was not being hampered by someone who literally told them “you aren’t worth my time”? What are you even trying to argue here?

The point is that rule 3.2 is clearly applies to everyone in every way no matter how we may think otherwise. Doesn't matter what mentor said or OP said as long as they weren't harassing each other with words or cursing at each other in any way, that has a different rule #. Rule 3.2 applies to both.

It does. So why are you continuing to not apply it to the OP or any other new people that may have been present in that party?

OP wanted help, mentor said no, why because it hinders his game experience, he wants that mount, his time is valuable, doesn't matter if he is a mentor or not rule 3.2. states "other players" that includes our mentor here. Mentor didn't provide any advice so it hindered OP's experience. So whose wrong? neither is wrong because rule 3.2 protects both players experience (whatever experience that may be they're both customers and can play as they will as long as they're following rule 3.2 as well) even if they're opposite experiences. You cant force even a mentor to do something if they don't want to because rule 3.2 protects them in their mentor game experience.

If rule 3.2 didn't exist then the mentor rules would be the #1 rules for the mentors to follow, but as of right now rule 3.2 comes first. Whether he should be a mentor or not, is decided by rule 3.2.

It’s pretty rude to tell someone “you aren’t worth my time”. The Mentor is in the wrong for hampering someone else’s experience, since you’re so keen to tar-and-feather the OP for supposedly “ruining” this Mentor’s experience. The OP came in far more prepared than most new players do, but if they had questions, where does this Mentor get off saying “not worth my time” to it? How is this Mentor being any of the things that the Mentor System is supposed to highlight? No, Mentors are not people that should be expected to automatically dish out advice, nor individuals who should be expected to perform perfectly. But if someone asked for advice, they should speak up and give it. That’s what the Mentor System is supposed to be about. Not a mount.

He can be a mentor and not give advice if he chooses not to because it may hinder his experience, especially when another player in involved as OP was.

men·tor
ˈmenˌtôr,ˈmenˌtər
noun

1. an experienced and trusted adviser.

verb
1. advise or train (someone, especially a younger colleague).

The mentor system provides more experienced players a means to offer advice and guidance to newer players.

- What is a mentor?
Mentors are veteran players who chose to offer their time and experience to help guide new adventurers. To facilitate their assistance, mentors will gain access to a special chat channel as well as a means to easily register for duties and trials with new players.

Source: https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...3d2c4227dfdc2e

What you’re saying is against what a mentor actually is. The Mentor Status itself (the crown) is supposed to be an alert to people that “hey, I can offer you advice if you need it”. Again, as per SE’s definition:

Mentor Online Status
After registering with the smith, the online status Mentor will become available. This online status has also been added to the player search interface, allowing new players to more easily seek help from those willing to offer assistance or answer questions.

Source: https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...2b5a39c#mentor

As per the definition of the word and SE’s definition of what a Mentor in the Mentor System is supposed to do. After all, you quoted the guidelines yourself:

Per SE

As a mentor you are expected to actively perform the following:
1 Provide gameplay advice for new adventurers and other players.
2 Be an exemplar for player etiquette.
3 Invite new adventurers to the Novice Network and answer their queries in the chat channel.

This “mentor” did neither 1 nor 2.

You later claim that you meant “to not hold people’s hands in content”—considering the OP actively prepared before even entering an Extreme trial, I doubt the mentor would have had to “hold their hand”; they’d already gone above and beyond what most players do to prep for an old Extreme trial. Maybe clarify a mechanic or two, or advise on cooldown rotation for tank busters if this person was tanking it, but hardly hold their hand. Instead, they responded with “you aren’t worth my time, I don’t want to teach, I just want my mount”. Heck, they could have even advised the OP that Party Finder may be easier for getting just a clear, yet warn them that said clear would probably be unsynced as a result of using PF. But did they? No.

If a Mentor doesn’t want to dedicate their time to teaching or advising, then turn the crown off and don’t queue for Mentor Roulette (because, let’s face it, that’s the only way this mentor ended up in Ramuh Ex). It’s that simple. When I don’t feel like teaching, I turn my crown off. And I don’t queue for Mentor Roulette. Even with my crown off, though, if someone asks a question (i.e., “Anything I should look out for with this boss? It’s my first time in here.”), I still do my best to answer them in a friendly manner. I don’t tell people they “aren’t worth my time”; that’s a very rude thing to do. And it most certainly isn’t being an “exemplar of player etiquette”.

We all have days where we don’t want to have to worry about anything else and just do our own thing. I know that I have had a lot of those lately, so I have been spending time on my alts that don’t have crowns on (they’re actually still beansprouts) so that I can just play the game and not have to worry about anything. But when I’m on my main, and when I have my crown on, I’m willing to answer any questions anyone asks. I don’t offer mechanic advice outright anymore unless asked because I got tired of the verbal abuse from it, but I still help people that ask me if it’s within my power to do so.

Stop defending this “mentor” with a rule that he, in turn, broke himself.

Well.....you're not exactly making the community any less toxic either on your own, that's for sure, based on your behavior towards Hyomin here. Yikes...

Honestly, they were far worse towards Miste. Which is why I hope they went out and got some air to cool down. There’s just no need for that kind of attitude. I know that you get beat down over time from verbal abuse over just trying to help but still.

[LalafellDown]

Snip

Yes both are protected under 3.2 and both are not wrong, OP and Mentor are both protected for their game experience under 3.2.

[HyoMinPark]

Yes both are protected under 3.2 and both are not wrong, OP and Mentor are both protected for their game experience under 3.2.

Simply asking questions to someone marked as a person whom should be receptive to said questions is not disrupting a player’s experience. Sorry to say.

[Keridwyn]

3.2

Find me the SE rep who will back asking the OP's question as a legitimate violation of this rule. 3.2 might cover quite a lot but last I checked it didn't shield you from basic human interaction or the 'Multiplayer' aspect of playing an MMO.

[KisaiTenshi]

Honestly, the best thing SE can do is just remove this system all together. It has done nothing productive for this game if forum threads about it are to be believed.

Nah. The system works, just doesn't work the way SE envisioned it. I've seen this happen in another game as well.

Basically, when the system is first introduced, you get the people who actually want to help, and then those people get punched down by ungrateful people who don't want the help. Thus the first to be mentors ends up being the most jaded about the mentor system. However this overlooks the fact that the people who first jump onto it were looking for some kind of privilege, and found it came along with far more consequences. You're not a junior-GM, you're just a player with a special icon.

So after the system has had the optimism punched out of the the early mentors, you're left with people who correctly identified the system as just another way to back-fill roulette queues, and thus are under no illusion that they will not get bad players, and just roll with it.

To that end, the mentor system is doing exactly what it set out to accomplish. A general help line with a dedicated "do everything queue". If you're not a mentor, and you pick a ARR/HW extreme primal from DF because you view it as content, you'll only get people from the mentor queue filling it, as those duties are not in any other roulette. Hence the OP experienced what we all know to be true, there are people are using the mentor roulette just to get the reward only.

Experience from another game, that is also true here, is that people just want to get past content and don't care if they're a carry. In that other game, every time I got pinged for help, it was always to do the final quest of some storyline that I could do in about 30 seconds because I was overpowered and over geared by that point. In FFXIV, if you just want to clear an ARR or HW EX, without the duty finder, the same thing can be done. Nobody learns the mechanics unless they see them, and you don't see the mechanics if you can just unsync and kill the boss before any of the mechanics have to be mitigated. Players who want to clear the ARR EX primals and I ask "do you just want the clear?" before anything because if they just want the clear I can solo all of the ARR ones unsynced when they get KO'd by the first mechanic. The thing is, this is not any different than what happened in the other game. People get their clear, and you basically just spent 5-10 minutes doing a fight that earns you nothing, and costs you maybe 2000g to repair your gear afterwards.

Some players need to get it out of their head that a Mentor entitles them to help. No, the Novice Network itself is a shortcut to asking players off-the-cuff things, and asking for help with things if you don't want to wait for DF/PF to fill. On a legacy server, the NN is basically filled with more mentors than new players, and the "new" players are never new-as-in-new-service. They're alts or players on free-weekends, or people who took a break for a few months. The rare actual new person probably hasn't been invited to the NN because the RMT spammer bots are the only ones who ask to be invited to it.

So the Mentor System and the Novice Network work for their intended purpose, but it doesn't really give any incentive to players to learn, a carry is still getting past content, and the impatience and play styles of some people pretty much ensures that nobody will ever explain how to do an EX Primal, let alone be willing to spend 60 minutes in one, and the result being pretty much everyone "clears" on a unsync carry instead.

[alimdia]

The mentor disrupted the OP's gaming experience, too. I hope you realize that. OP did everything right by researching the fight prior, but that can still leave questions and/or confusion over something once you see it in action. The "mentor" saying "you aren't worth me time, I don't want to teach, I only want my mentor mount" is in the wrong.

Just a reminder that OP didn't provide screenshots, and for all we know it could have been paraphrased.

Imagine the hypothetical scenario where the mentor is silent, the OP is nagging, snaps and asks why is the mentor there if he's not gonna explain and the mentor replies with "I'm here for the mount".

This is not just for you, but for everyone here, people are getting too emotional over an one sided story with no chat logs. Not saying the OP is purposely lying, just that people can take words the wrong way in the heat of the moment.

Side note: I've complained since the day they added Astrope and I still hold the belief that either a mentor roulette shouldn't have exclusive rewards or mentor roulette should be renamed to something else divorced from the mentor system. Mentoring is supposed to be selfless, adding a reward attracts the wrong kind of people.