All Greed on Alliance loot

[BillyKaplan]

and my answer is does anyone really need 24 man gear

Then you don't and you can do without rolling on it weekly, no? What difference does the rolling system make to you?
Generally though it's, again, catch-up gear and for people who are low on tomestones. And that's before we get to the situations where it's outright the BiS piece for the tier.

Also same could also be said with greed all people did get the gear they wanted from the 24, sure it might have taken longer but like anything with a variance it might have been quicker for some.

It's bad design to balance loot according to an average of that sort, especially when the RNG in 24-player raids is already horrendous. For every person who got their roll on the very first run you're going to find several who went for weeks without even seeing gear for their desired job drop. And while neither Greed-Only nor the Need systems address that problem, when that piece of gear already drops, I'd rather the healer is at least protected enough that they didn't lose it to the DRG they kept raising for the entire run.
No one is claiming the Need system is perfect, but it's better than what we have now so I don't rightly care to debate the flaws of the Need-only system. If you want a piece of gear, the least you can do is bring that role to the content.

[Rogatum]

Then you don't and you can do without rolling on it weekly, no? What difference does the rolling system make to you? Generally though it's, again, catch-up gear and for people who are low on tomestones. And that's before we get to the situations where it's outright the BiS piece for the tier.

It's bad design to balance loot according to an average of that sort, especially when the RNG in 24-player raids is already horrendous. For every person who got their roll on the very first run you're going to find several who went for weeks without even seeing gear for their desired job drop. And while neither Greed-Only nor the Need systems address that problem, when that piece of gear already drops, I'd rather the healer is at least protected enough that they didn't lose it to the DRG they kept raising for the entire run.
No one is claiming the Need system is perfect, but it's better than what we have now so I don't rightly care to debate the flaws of the Need-only system. If you want a piece of gear, the least you can do is bring that role to the content.

Never said I did need the gear, I more so I want the gear. The difference boils down to that I am simply defending my choice of poison between the two systems, just as you are. As you said neither system address anything outside the fact of offering some form of loot protection to players, as you mentioned no one made the claim that greed all was prefect you see what is going on here? Both sides are simply defending their preferred poison, yet for some reason people of the need side feel those that prefer the greed system are simply being unreasonable. Granted you can find others on the greed side calling those that wanted it reverted back to need as whinny. That is what is amazing both sides really do not have much of a platform to stand on since both sides are based around preference. I think it is bad design to balance loot around RNG, and to use RNG as a means to increase content longevity just shows a lack of creativity. That is mu opinion though.

[BillyKaplan]

for some reason people of the need side feel those that prefer the greed system are simply being unreasonable.

Because "I liked the Greed-Only rule because I could gear up jobs I hated playing" is an unreasonable thing to say. If you hate it, why are you playing it, least of all gearing it up. It's a game. Love yourself more and play things you enjoy.

I think it is bad design to balance loot around RNG, and to use RNG as a means to increase content longevity just shows a lack of creativity. That is mu opinion though.

Which is what a lot of people thought was the real reason behind the change, given that even the Japanese players seemed to largely hate on it.

Oh well, tomorrow it'll be gone and things will go back to normal.

[Rogatum]

Because "I liked the Greed-Only rule because I could gear up jobs I hated playing" is an unreasonable thing to say. If you hate it, why are you playing it, least of all gearing it up. It's a game. Love yourself more and play things you enjoy.



Which is what a lot of people thought was the real reason behind the change, given that even the Japanese players seemed to largely hate on it.

Oh well, tomorrow it'll be gone and things will go back to normal.

Maybe they hated playing the job in 24 man content, I personally am not a huge fan healing in 24 man content, but I do enjoy healing 4 and 8 man content. Without knowing the reason behind the hate I do not think it is reasonable for any player to pass judgment on another. As for the reason why they changed it I could see that, but that is another aspect where preference comes into play. Since if you have a lot of jobs leveled to 70, the greed method made gearing them up a tad quicker. Either way yeah we go back to the old way of doing things.

[Cidel]

Perhaps off-topic but, why do I get the feeling we're arguing with the same person who doesn't want to play healer in 24 man alliance raids spread across several alt characters? I'm not imagining it, am I? Did a quick lodestone check and seen a couple of the people here arguing about it don't even have a healer leveled on that character... I suppose that it's not terribly important but some things are a little more clearer now if that's the case...

[Saraphin]

Honestly: there's something called Asking if people will pass for a piece, Rogatum.

Some people might not, some people will. That's the Only way i got my healer drops...and it took nearly 20 runs to Not be outrolled by someone on a DPS class. it also took nearly 50 Runs to get the Healer Chest piece to drop. I don't care if someone wants to gear up ALT classes, but if they're gonna do it while dying to every mechanic? I want Need Rights.

[Penthea]

Maybe they hated playing the job in 24 man content, I personally am not a huge fan healing in 24 man content, but I do enjoy healing 4 and 8 man content. Without knowing the reason behind the hate I do not think it is reasonable for any player to pass judgment on another.

Yea well loads of people here did give their reasons and I gave my judgement. With some I could appreciate why they liked greed only even if I hate it myself, others were plainly selfish creatures who simply did not care if the system affected others very badly because it worked for them if they didn't want to play a role but still wanted gear for it.

Some people who were at first okay with the system changed their mind because they personally experienced losing gear they need to a player who doesn't even have the role unlocked or high enough level to equip it.

The best thing about all this is... before SE brought in greed only I don't think anyone ever complained about the need/greed/pass system and asked for need to be removed. I spend a lot of time in the forums and I have never seen a thread like that. Maybe they exist but they're obviously rare and certainly never got the momentum that the hate for greed only has. SE bringing in a loot system nobody asked for opened up the conversation we're having right now.

As for hating 24 man content on certain classes well I'll tell those people what greed only lovers told people like me: there are several ways to gear up a class without touching 24 man.

Anyway it's not as if the need system removes greed. You can still greed items not for your role and if those who play that role don't want it, well then the system gives it to the highest greed roll. You still can get gear for roles that, for whatever reason, you don't bring to 24 man.

[Vasala]

The absolute best solution would be to only allow Need rolls if a piece of gear was an upgrade for the person rolling. If it was not an upgrade for their job then greed would be the only option. It would also be nice for cards and music to only be available for Need rolls if the person did not already have it in their card list / orchestrion list. Unfortunately the gear part would probably be very difficult to program.

[Malzian]

I lost a roll on a chest piece that would have been a good upgrade for my BRD as the only ranged DPS in the group to the healer because I rolled a 2 on it.... can't wait for Need to come back. >.<

[Penthea]

The absolute best solution would be to only allow Need rolls if a piece of gear was an upgrade for the person rolling. If it was not an upgrade for their job then greed would be the only option. Unfortunately the gear would probably be very difficult to program.

It would be near impossible.

Whether something is an upgrade or not isn't always black and white. A 360 piece with your class's best secondaries is often better than a 370 with weak secondaries. Higher ilvl is only ever absolutely better if the ilvl jump is massive. 10 ilvls, depending on the slot, often isn't a big enough jump.

You could also abuse the system by having lower ilvl gear equipped to force it to prioritise you.

Okay maybe the system looks at what's in your inventory as well as equipped, but what if the best chest piece for you is actually a lower ilvl crafted piece with pentameld and because of this you have no other chest piece for that class. Well then the system thinks you have inferior gear so it gives you high priority.

Nevermind how for healing what is considered an upgrade for you can very much depend on whether you do speed runs or not and what your role in them is.

It's a nice idea but like you said yourself it would be very difficult to program. There are too many variables to consider when calculating whether something is an upgrade or not.

It would also be nice for cards and music to only be available for Need rolls if the person did not already have it in their card list / orchestrion list.

This is a part of the loot system that does need changing. It wouldn't be difficult to program as all the system has to do is check if you have it or not.