Normal (newbie) version of the new Ultima fight for casuals? xD

[Bourne_Endeavor]

It takes 10 seconds on google to see several different times where players have used unintended strategies or found ways to lock the boss animation. It is not an unreasonable request that players are not rewarded for using exploits.

You mean like Tank LB3ing through Byakko EX's mechanic, thus avoiding it altogether? Or the Ghost skip in Phantom Train Savage? Because both were cited by the developers themselves as not being exploits. Sooooo

[Dualblade]

Its more like certain things that are completely breaking things take time to actually reach the devolpers compared to how fast players think it'll reach them. When the players finally got the devs attention on Ungarmax? Fixed so fast one would think they summoned Alexander to help.

Not everything players use that are unintended by the devs when creating content is an exploit and/or bug. Just because they forget to think how Tank LBs might be used in certain situations instead of DPSing/DPS LB doesn't mean they aren't okay with it (and they themselves said they are okay with it.) Apparently Ninjas doing Huton before pulls was also unintended by the devs when Ninjas were first released, yet not only has noone been in trouble for doing so its now considered the right thing to do by the devs too when devolping new Nin skills.

[Lambdafish]

You mean like Tank LB3ing through Byakko EX's mechanic, thus avoiding it altogether? Or the Ghost skip in Phantom Train Savage? Because both were cited by the developers themselves as not being exploits. Sooooo

You may have misinterpreted their words. Both ARE exploits, and the fights werent intended to be beaten that way. What the Devs actually said is that they acknowledge that these methods exist and that they aren't going to do anything about them.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

You may have misinterpreted their words. Both ARE exploits, and the fights werent intended to be beaten that way. What the Devs actually said is that they acknowledge that these methods exist and that they aren't going to do anything about them.

She's equating them with Ungarmax, which is actually cheating. Tank LB3 isn't an exploit, it's simply a different strategy the devs didn't intend for. You can maybe argue some grey area with the ghost skip, but even that's a reach.

[RiyahArp]

Hardcore in MMOs is a function of difficulty and time. FFXIV is casual. It may have the difficulty, but it makes up for it in one of the least time burdens of any MMO. FFXI, old school EQ, and Lineage 2 are probably the hardcore side. Peple here complain about the story quests, which are all easy and take maybe a month or so. In older games, getting to level cap could take a year of mob grinding and farming.

Hardcore gamer...eh. The term is kind of muddied now. I don't think world firsters are hardcore, more "pro" because hardcore was never really about being good at a game, but games becoming your life. We kind of have the pro gamer now, the person who plays it professionally like a sport.

[InkstainedGwyn]

You may have misinterpreted their words. Both ARE exploits, and the fights werent intended to be beaten that way. What the Devs actually said is that they acknowledge that these methods exist and that they aren't going to do anything about them.

An exploit literally means using elements of the game in ways that they're not meant to be used. There isn't a single moment in battle where an LB3 of any kind being used is an "exploit" (unless you've somehow figured out how to use it without having the gauge full) because LBs are meant to be used in battle.

Are they cheesing it? Sure, if you want to call it that. Are they an exploit? No. Given that LB3s are there to be used whenever you believe they'll best serve your party, it's actually a situation where the players are adept at actually choosing the best moment, even if the devs didn't expect them to think of that strategy.

[Sebazy]

To he fair, not all encounter design loopholes are equal. A4S suicide strats or skipping the ghosts are one thing. Spin2win was arguably stepping over the line.

I’m not sure why Kisa seems to be so insistent that breaking encounters is an NA/EU thing though? We simply tend to have a wider variety of strats for any given fight, wheres the pug focus in JP has them leaning towards one strat. Our variety gives us a better chance of finding loopsholes.

If you think JPs are above exploiting poor encounter design, A4S would like a word with you

[SinisterJoints]

Agreeing with this. As a casual player, I've partied up with "hardcore/elite" players from an old FC of mine thinking they would be amazing. Brilliant crafters and MB management skill, yet despite their hardcore raiding and being categorised as "hardcore," they were absolutely awful at their classes - and not just their specific classes, but at like... dungeoning in general. Kept getting hit by aoes, slow reaction times, mindless gameplay in general. It didn't matter what class they played as or what dungeon or raid (that I experienced with them) they were doing, they sucked and it was pretty miserable partying up with them (we just didn't... have chemistry, I guess.). XD Hardcore does not always mean good player. Casual does not always mean bad player and I don't think these terms have ever "evolved" to indicate otherwise as a community, but maybe in some individuals' minds it has? But... yenno, those individuals can think what they want.




Also agreeing with this.

(Edit: The rest of your snippet was very interesting as well in retrospect of my excerpt above.)

I thought so as well, very good post Lambdafish

[Lambdafish]

An exploit literally means using elements of the game in ways that they're not meant to be used. There isn't a single moment in battle where an LB3 of any kind being used is an "exploit" (unless you've somehow figured out how to use it without having the gauge full) because LBs are meant to be used in battle.

Are they cheesing it? Sure, if you want to call it that. Are they an exploit? No. Given that LB3s are there to be used whenever you believe they'll best serve your party, it's actually a situation where the players are adept at actually choosing the best moment, even if the devs didn't expect them to think of that strategy.

We are getting very off topic, so I don't want to to dwell on this too much. But the difference between O5S WAR strat and ungermax isn't the difference between exploit and not an exploit, its the difference between a technical exploit and a design exploit, which the devs (quite rightly) handle differently. Both are the result of developer oversight, and both result in unintended drops in difficulty. You are right that LB3 can be used whenever the player feels best, but in this case, the devs didn't account for or realize that LB3 was both available and able to skip the mechanic, which is on the developers, not the players, as many design exploits are (though I should remind you that even despite that, the titan-egi Ramuh exploit was fixed quite quickly). The reason that design exploits are handled differently is that they are not "system breaking", or the result of bugs, such as Ungermax, and are simply oversights by the devs when it comes to fight design. This was touched upon by Yoshi P regarding the fight design of Zurvan and the skip soar controversy.

Ultimately an exploit is when you "exploit a poorly designed or broken part of the game to achieve an advantage not intended by the developer" which is true for all of the above examples.

[MoroMurasaki]

Ultimately an exploit is when you "exploit a poorly designed or broken part of the game to achieve an advantage not intended by the developer" which is true for all of the above examples.

I don't see how tank LB3 in Byakko is exploiting anything - it's literally just using a tank LB3 for it's designed purpose. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean?

If using tank LB3 to mitigate otherwise unsurvivable incoming damage is an exploit what would be a non-exploitative use of it? It has no other function, all it does is a big chunk of mitigation.