DPS who do 4k worth of damage = garbage tier

[kikix12]

All I've ever said is that you don't really need a parser to see that a DPS is performing badly, and that terrible DPS is reflected in the enmity list.

Reading the discussion from the side...that's exactly the point that people did (at least originally) counter.

You said that enmity can be used to see a DPS performing badly.
Others said it absolutely cannot be used to see a DPS performing badly, because the enmity of those that perform well is the same or lower if they use their enmity management skills better.

That's all. No one was saying anything about parser for a good while. They merely gave time and time again examples of how enmity doesn't mean a thing for anything other than tanking. Enmity shows only one bad thing in a DPS. Poor use of enmity management skills. That's all. It goes even further down the drain if there is any kind of spawn in the fight (or if it's a mid-dungeon pull) where the damage is variously spread between targets. At that point you could look at all the skill uses and buffs you want. There is 0 chance you could even roughly glance over it, unless you do nothing but switch targets to see all that enmity and try to deduce who did the hits and with what. In a boss with spawn, some may go for a spawn (one of few different, possibly), some may stick on the boss. Unless someone is going after a spawn solo, at which point you can visually compare the time it takes for him to kill it (if you saw and remember other DPS players doing the same feat), that completely messes up any estimation of how good or bad a player is based on enmity.

So yes. Your point was understood and it was countered repeatedly.


As for the original post...If you believe that you have poorly written the original post KaivaC...then simply edit it and elaborate on your stance so that everyone can see from the get-go what it is. Trying to explain yourself in latter posts without editing the original post cannot really do much.

[Lunaxia]

I understand the direction you're trying to go here, humor me if you would be so kind. Sigma normal seems a happy middle ground. How do you pick out an underperforming dps?

In Sigma NM, I probably wouldn't notice since there aren't really any areas that would highlight a problem. It's more noticeable with DPS checks and enrages. I'd just look to see if anyone's noticeably lagging behind on the list, what job they are, are they using enmity dumps, etc. Then keep an eye on how they actually perform during the fight. Missed GCDs, that kind of thing.

whee.

Examples? And enmity management skills are used in openers, and if a DPS is creeping up on a tank. They're not up enough during any fight to be able to keep the enmity of a terrible player and a high-performing player on par for very long. The difference becomes visible at some point.

[aesteval]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/m...threads/362419

[MoroMurasaki]

In Sigma NM, I probably wouldn't notice since there aren't really any areas that would highlight a problem. It's more noticeable with DPS checks and enrages. I'd just look to see if anyone's noticeably lagging behind on the list, what job they are, are they using enmity dumps, etc. Then keep an eye on how they actually perform during the fight. Missed GCDs, that kind of thing.

I don't know, maybe I'm just really bad at this but I just don't see how it's possible to track someone's missed GCDs from sight alone. Spell or skill speed, movement for mechs... no, I can't believe that this is doable while also doing your job.

[Miste]

I don't know, maybe I'm just really bad at this but I just don't see how it's possible to track someone's missed GCDs from sight alone. Spell or skill speed, movement for mechs... no, I can't believe that this is doable while also doing your job.

It's cause it is not possible to do it as a human being without error and therefore you would have to fill in gaps with "assumptions", and well...we all know what assumptions can lead to....the wrong conclusion.

That is why people cannot go by the enmity list alone, it has way too many variables to ever determine objectively who is "garbage" as they put it.

You can try to pay attention to everything every single member of the party is doing, but honestly to claim you have the skill to not only play your job somewhat properly and pay attention to what 7 other players are doing all at the same time...well...I am obviously extremely unwilling to believe that someone can do that and figure out which of the 7 are doing things wrong without missing crucial information that a parser simply takes right from the game log and knows every single action everyone takes.

Even just DPS jobs and leaving out tanks/healers...following what 3-5 other members are doing all at once...I mean there is a reason we humans rely on computers and programs to analyze large amounts of data for us. It is way less prone to error.

So, yeah, you are definitely correct in your assessment Moro.

[Lunaxia]

I don't know, maybe I'm just really bad at this but I just don't see how it's possible to track someone's missed GCDs from sight alone. Spell or skill speed, movement for mechs... no, I can't believe that this is doable while also doing your job.

Not moving, bad positioning and repositioning, pausing, not weaving OGCDs, not using gap closers, fumbling mechanics, general clumsiness affecting their uptime... it's not super hard to spot, really.

[MoroMurasaki]

Not moving, bad positioning and repositioning, pausing, not weaving OGCDs, not using gap closers, fumbling mechanics, general clumsiness affecting their uptime... it's not super hard to spot, really.

I am 100% sure you can't actually keep track of all these things for 7 people.

Not faulting you, virtually no one could.

Claiming to is either ignorant or dishonest.

[Remus]

Huh? didn't think I will see a topic based on a comment I didn't make too seriously but I will give more insight on what I meant. When I say garbage tier I mean if you have 360/370 gear you shouldn't be doing 4k DPS, you should be aiming for at least 5k I would put as the minimum especially if you raid.As others have said there are many situations which can lower your DPS like if you don't have a high ilvl or if you die or it's your first clear etc. I'm guilty of low DPS when I die or I'm getting my first clear so my comment wasn't directed at those people. What I will say though is from my experience playing FF14 since 2.0 launch and seeing people's DPS...I'm not surprised SE doesn't add a official parser.

I will say garbage wasn't the right word so I think I would go with below average instead? Like I mentioned in my comment there is a site which people upload their DPS from a range of top of the end raiders to casuals who still upload them and you can see what you should at least be aiming for when it comes to DPS. Honestly, if most people just learnt a opener their DPS would increase because after the opener it mainly comes down to just managing dots and using certain skills to a basic level because they will all line up. There are so many pieces of resources out there for openers that i'm surprised people don't know it for their class.

Here is one for SAM if you are a Samurai and below 1633 skillspeed: http://ffxivrotations.com/17ou

Here is another for over 1633 Skill Speed http://ffxivrotations.com/1d35

If you do this at the start and follow the basic principle for Samurai getting sens then use Hagakure on cooldown and Midare Setsugekka when you can't use Hagakure you will have decent dps.

I have also been seeing people mention not needing a parser to see DPS and but can use the enmity which is false. If by chance you are partied with a Samurai and they use merciful eyes their aggro will drop so you can't gauge it through that.

Overall, this is through the eyes of a raider so my view on certain things might be different from other people. With that said I still think people should strive to improve in something they play because I think you will start getting more enjoyment out of it. That's just me though so you don't need to listen to that advice if you don't want to.

[Lunaxia]

I am 100% sure you can't actually keep track of all these things for 7 people.

...I don't? I already said, I see if there's a DPS problem, if anyone's noticeably behind, if there's any reason behind it, and then look.

[MoroMurasaki]

...I don't? I already said, I see if there's a DPS problem, if anyone's noticeably behind, if there's any reason behind it, and then look.

Then you've missed everything up to that point, rendering your assessmemt essentially useless because it isn't complete.

Also: noticeably behind what?