Can we do something about Secret of the Lily II now?

[Sylvain]

First as you mentionned, the way of triggering lilies isn't desirable. Unless they'd HIGHLY increase boss AA dmg (and by highly I mean a good 100% more if not 200%) to make cure/cureII and related spell viable. (I mean, you'd have to heal more than hots and instant basically), there's no way this triggering process can ever be good.
Second, it reduces the WHM cd, but because of FF14 fight nature's, less cd is rarely useful. Fight are so scripted that having your skill back 10sec before is either not needed or extremely useful (like, without the cd reduction you wouldn't have it for a said mechanic). Unfortunately it's more often than not on the useless side of the spectrum.


The trait does need a rework but it's unlikely something like this will happen before 5.0
We're already at 4.3 and there's no reason to do a proper rework 2 patch before the xpac ends. Even if some people don't want to admit it, WHM are in a good position EVEN with a trash trait. And no, speed run aren't a reason to buff whm. Progression is the only thing that truly matter to S.E (see Lightspeed buff). Being competitive on speed run, something a fraction of the fraction of the savage raider does is not of high concern for them.


I honestly believe the trait will be totally reworked for 5.0. I don't think SE will rework the battle system to the point of making basic heal spam mendatory (I'd love it tho)

What I hope to happen for the lilies system (assuming it's not entirely removed, which could happen since only one spell truly depends on it)

more way of procing, either through StoneIV or Regen
better bonus, instead of a CD reduction perhaps added potency/effect
an effective way to dump excess lilies assuming they add a reliable way of generating some


But seriously I wouldn't hope too much. The AST change on Lightspeed was easier to implement and transformed a largely useless cd to something we can finally use often.
Lilies would need a bigger rework and I don't think this will happen (unfortunately)

The very best that could happen would be the lilies procing from StoneIV but knowing Y.P stand on healer dps, I would really not expect something like this. (but like not at all)





Regarding AST, the access to a quicker lightspeed only becomes "good" with this patch as lightspeed CD has been reduced (and the cd quite enhanced)

The talent reduces the cd on lightspeed by 10sec everytime you use Essential Dignity
For a maximum efficiency Lightspeed should always be in CD and you should use essential Dignity on CD.
However, prior to 4.3 you had very little reason to have LightSpeed on CD since it destroyed your dmg and would only be good in high healing situation for the mp reduction. The ability to have everything instant is rarely the reason you used Lightspeed.

With a CD of 150sec and Essential Dignity on a 40sec, you could, at most, reduces Lightspeed CD by 30sec. In otherword, you bring it to its baseline CD in 4.3.
Reducing Lightspeed cd by 30s has never been something I (or any AST that I know) find exciting or useful.
Unlike the SCH talent which effectively reduces the CD of Aeatherflow by 15sec, more Lightspeed 1 more lightspeed per fgiht is rather useless. There's plenty of fight I don't even press it.

With the reduction of Lightspeed baseline cd to 120, we'll be able to reduce its cd by 20 more secs.
However this time there's more incitive to use Lightspeed on cd / on pull

Still, the trait is rather weak and reduces the cd of a situational skill and for that you need to use another situational skill that I rather keep for emergency or tank burters (and not everytime it's up to reduce lightspeed cd)
And this is the core of the problem, it's reduces the cd of a situation skill and not a core one like Eatherflow.

[KDSilver]

With the reduction of Lightspeed baseline cd to 120, we'll be able to reduce its cd by 20 more secs.

Indeed, but with the new lightspeed, you'll definitly want to align it with CO to get that 10 more sec so, don't really know if that trait is really useful now.

I don't know if it's better to use on CD (90s then with ED uses) or wait for CO.
Maybe by using it on CD, on long fights, we might be able to get one extra lightspeed than if waiting to align it with CO.

[Sylvain]

Indeed, but with the new lightspeed, you'll definitly want to align it with CO to get that 10 more sec so, don't really know if that trait is really useful now.

I don't know if it's better to use on CD (90s then with ED uses) or wait for CO.
Maybe by using it on CD, on long fights, we might be able to get one extra lightspeed than if waiting to align it with CO.

meh, once again the only real mana benefit you'll get from that +10sec is on costy spells such as helios or gravity.
But you'll most likely end up casting MaleficIII with it so you won't save that much mana

I personally think you'll most likely end up waisting more mana than anything by aligning it with CO. CO is usually used on pull and during "burst windows" when you can exploit your cards the most. These moment are usually soft on healing, therefor you'll use LS only to save mana on maleficIII
Not worth it if you ask me (Don't feel forced to point to that one fight where it would be beneficial, I was talking about general case)

I think I'd rather keep it for when I have to rez someone or something like this. At least I'd save 50% on the rez, then the cureII to top the dps.


Anyway, Lightspeed rework is great and the cd finally become something good, but the trait is terrible if not worse than lilies



As for Lilies not relying on RNG to proc, yes this should be a thing.
At least cureII should give a 100% chance.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

Anyway, Lightspeed rework is great and the cd finally become something good, but the trait is terrible if not worse than lilies



As for Lilies not relying on RNG to proc, yes this should be a thing.
At least cureII should give a 100% chance.

10s off Lightspeed everytime you use your ogcd heal, which now is less likely to clip, is fantastic. It's useful, noticeable and give you quicker access to 10s of complete mobility. How is this in any way worse than the Lily trait?

Also not sure if you meant lilies or the Lily trait at the end there, but Cure II has always been a guaranteed proc.

[Sylvain]

10s off Lightspeed everytime you use your ogcd heal, which now is less likely to clip, is fantastic. It's useful, noticeable and give you quicker access to 10s of complete mobility. How is this in any way worse than the Lily trait?

Also not sure if you meant lilies or the Lily trait at the end there, but Cure II has always been a guaranteed proc.

It is bad because Light Speed is NOT something you want on CD at all time
It is not Eartherflow
It is not Draw cards
It doesn't increase your healing
It doesn't increase your dps

It only makes you save mana and, eventually, increase your uptime (which can be considered healing/dps increase but then it needs to be popped at a specific time, not whenever it's up)


It is a situational skill

And this situational skill has it cd shortened by another situational skill.

Complete mobility is nice for BLM, not AST. Again the number of situation where you will need 12sec of instant spell is scarce to not say nearly non existent. AST usually use LightSpeed as a mana saver.
I mean, how many time would you actually need to have 12sec of instant? Beside freeing up 3-4 maleficIII this won't do much.

I'm not saying that Lightspeed is bad, but I'm trying to point that it is not something you're gonna pop whenever it is up.
Think of it a bit like Benediction, you can either use it as an emergency spell or you time it for a specific mechanic, but it is not something you'll use whenever it is up.

Which is why AST trait is, in a sens, worse than WHM trait. Because at the very least the lilies affect something you use all the time. While it might be useless in controlled scenario when you simply farm the boss, during learning having access to more abilities is rarely a bad thing. It is also during learning that you're most likely to use cureII (because we have less gear and people do mistake).

Lilies just really fall short when the fight is perfectly undercontrol. But at this point the same could be said about Lightspeed, beside eventually allowing you to cast 6-9 more MaleficIII throughout the course of a fight it won't do much. And let's be honest, when you're farming a boss 9 MaleficIII is hardly something you need


Finally, last point. I forgot that cureII gives a lilies with 100% chance. Which effectively support your first say "People don't even pay attention to the mechanic"
I don't even know what procs them XD (it's my bad but yeah I don't really look at how many lilies I have)

[Tridus]

It's really funny, because in HW there was a similarly useless trait. A random chance to save half MP on Medica. But it was unreliable and unoticeable, just like this trait, and was removed in SB.
I guess this will be the same exact situation repeated...

Amusingly, that trait would be an upgrade over SotL2. You'll actually benefit from a cheap medica sometimes even if it's not very noticeable.

SotL2 has all kinds of problems, in that none of it really works:
1. It requires an RNG proc on an RNG proc, making it unlikely to happen.
2. It can only trigger on spells that WHMs don't want to spam in the first place, making it even more unlikely to happen.
3. If it does trigger, what it does isn't particularly desirable and is so trivial that it's barely perceptible.

Using the numbers previously assumed in here of a 25% crit rate, it's got a 1/20 chance of going off from a Cure II. I can go through entire experts without casting Cure II 10 times, depending on how squishy the tank is/how big they're pulling. The odds are pretty high that it never triggers at all. If it does, who cares? I'm unlikely to even notice 5 seconds on Asylum. (I remember the one time I did notice it and went "huh? oh, right, that trait exists...")

It is a situational skill

And this situational skill has it cd shortened by another situational skill.

And this makes it worse than the WHM version... how?

Which is why AST trait is, in a sens, worse than WHM trait. Because at the very least the lilies affect something you use all the time. While it might be useless in controlled scenario when you simply farm the boss, during learning having access to more abilities is rarely a bad thing. It is also during learning that you're most likely to use cureII (because we have less gear and people do mistake).

The WHM trait in question (SotL2) doesn't give lilies. It reduces the CD of Assize or Asylum by 5 seconds, 20% of the time Cure II crits. That's somewhere around a 5% chance when you cast Cure II to get 5 seconds off one of two abilities. Comparatively, Hyper Lightspeed gives double the CDR with a 100% chance to activate. That means it is doing more, more often, and more reliably. Even if the last part is a wash (if neither care about the CDR), one of these is objectively better than the other.

But hey, want to trade? I'd take 10s off every time I cast DB and you can have a 5% chance to get 5s every time you cast Benefic II. And lets not even talk about Quickened Aetherflow, which is vastly superior to either of them.

Finally, last point. I forgot that cureII gives a lilies with 100% chance. Which effectively support your first say "People don't even pay attention to the mechanic"
I don't even know what procs them XD (it's my bad but yeah I don't really look at how many lilies I have)

Cure I also has a 100% chance to give lilies.

[Sylvain]

The WHM trait in question (SotL2) doesn't give lilies. It reduces the CD of Assize or Asylum by 5 seconds, 20% of the time Cure II crits. That's somewhere around a 5% chance when you cast Cure II to get 5 seconds off one of two abilities. Comparatively, Hyper Lightspeed gives double the CDR with a 100% chance to activate. That means it is doing more, more often, and more reliably. Even if the last part is a wash (if neither care about the CDR), one of these is objectively better than the other.

God I really need to read these traits tooltip again.

Fine, SotL2 is utter trash beyond redemption.XD

I still maintain that HyperLightspeed is a bad trait.
But at this point only SCH has a good trait (a boring one, granted, but 15sec on Eatherflows is not bad)

The lilies mechanic received so little love from the community that I would expect some decent rework for 5.0
But for AST, I think 4.3 Hyperlightspeed is the only rework we'll ever get on that trait.

[Heilstos]

My dear Sharl,

The reduction of the lightspeed by the property "Hyper Lightspeed" is unfortunately no longer so advantageous due to the change in the cooldown. Because through the reduction, the lightspeed no longer fits more tightly with opposition. Now the astrologain has to watch when he pulls the lightspeed.

But a positive aspect is left over Lightspeed and synastry will now be more enjoyable to use. Nevertheless, it should be watched to extend both buffs with Oppotion. Reducing the cooldown of Lightspeed through the property makes it difficult to apply the Oppotion window. Now the property feels like a corrective tool. I take the opinion that hyperlightspeed and Secret of the lily II have landed on the same level of usability.

And as I can read it from the thread. The majority of whitemages are not enthusiastic about the property. For my part, I would have been happy about a reduction of the CD from synastry.

[Sylvain]

We are at 4.4 and the last content has already been cleared.
I don't expect any buff / major change for 4.5 except Qol changes.

I don't see what they could do "now" that could matter.

What I wanna know is what they'll do for 5.0
Znd tbh, I'm expecting an entire rewhaule of the lily system. I think only the name will stay