Living Dead

[WhyAmIHere]

That's actually damn good, too good actually. SE would do something like make it do a full Reverse where damage heals you, but heals hurt you and you can still die, so a panicked healer who sees you at low HP kills you with their OGCD heal bomb trying to save you at low health. XD

But planned, even that would be better than the current LD. Especially if it was like you're suggesting where heals and damage both healed the DRK.

it'd still accomplish the same goal, right? For x seconds, healers could focus on DPS?

[InfiniDragon]

it'd still accomplish the same goal, right? For x seconds, healers could focus on DPS?

That guy's proposed LD would be superior to the current design because it would work without a healer.

If attacks healed you like a Reverse status ailment, then you'd effectively take no damage instead of having to be topped off. It would actually be closer to a DRK flavored Hallowed, instead.

If my "SE troll" version was what they went with and heals hurt you but damage healed, it would require healer coordination to ensure they stop healing you while it's up but again, a 130+ K tankbuster would leave you at full health instead of them having to heal you out of the Walking Dead state, so it would still be better since no wasted OGCD from the heals.

The more I think about it, the more I really wish it would happen, but it won't.

[Fyce]

The 10 second safety cushion doesn't "provide" anything but a transfer into walking dead. If its planned, a DRK can use it 10 seconds before the attack or right before it nothing changes.

It is different. An automatic trigger drastically lowers the chances of mistakes. Besides, you will not "waste" anything by using it early, like you would with Hallowed Ground and Holmgang. Especially Holmgang given its short initial duration. It's a "fire and forget" skill for the DRK, while it's a "I must time this exactly right or I die and we most likely wipe" for the WAR and PLD.
There is a reason why people absolutly hate the fact that Hallowed Ground takes about a second to activate, leading to deaths that would not have occured with Living Dead. That simple thing is enough to say that yes, it is different and it does play a role. Brushing it off because people could theoretically be perfect is stupid. The playerbase is far from being made of perfect players. The more safeguards the better.

If its an unplanned use, there is a chance that the healer won't even let it proc and it was wasted, since it has such a high cooldown, in this situation a war was much better off. A warrior can be brought back up to speed with a single cure following deathblows, single healer situation, emergency situations.

If the WAR has a target. And is in range. And doesn't put the group at risk for being rooted. And doesn't die from an auto-attack after that "single cure".
That's a lot of "if" to strictly say that Holmgang is better.

In terms of Usability Living dead is not 10 seconds, it is always below 10. At 10 you die anyway. I'd like to meet the healer with balls of steel that let it go to the last tic on purpose. It gets to a point that waiting for the last tic doesn't even matter cause only hits at 1HP are being mitigated and any healing being done is mostly just to get rid of walking dead while hits are still going out which can sometimes cause a panic overheal.

Even if it's 6, 7 or 8 seconds, it's still better than Holmgang and allows you to have more leeway for situations where you need to take multiple hits that would kill you in a row.
Besides, letting it tick to its full duration doesn't achieve anything. As soon as the mechanic is dealt with, and no big benefits would come from letting it tick, LD can be removed. Living Dead not being able to go through all 10 seconds is completly irrelevant. It's a pointless argument. Same thing for Holmgang. Nobody would wait for it to end to get the WAR back up if there's a danger of getting hit after that.

I feel like the people who are giving living dead so much credit are the ones who have not had bad experiences with it.

You can replace "living dead" with Holmgang and Hallowed Grounds anytime.
Who never activated HG just a bit too late and cursed at it for being on cooldown but you being dead? I sure did.
Who never had bad experiences with the range/root/target/timing of Holmgang? I sure did.

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@Chrono_Rising: Most of my post was about the automatic trigger of Living Dead. Not the fact that you can (and should) heal and remove it before the full 10 seconds. I know that you can remove Living Dead before the end. Duh. Almost two thirds of your post missed my point. I seriously cannot be bothered to do a quote war with that.
I'll just bring one thing quickly here: you talked about Living Dead having an issue in O4S in that it required to be correctly timed. And then, in the very next paragraph, you went on to say that timings aren't a big deal after all. Dude. Don't argue against Living Dead just for the sake of it, expecially if you don't even believe in your own arguments. Otherwise, back to square one where I made my first post: the number of people arguing against Living Dead with false/over exaggerated arguments is damn too high. Or just be honest and say that you simply want to vent and that Living Dead seems like a good scapegoat.

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Look, I fully agree that Living Dead drawback could be better. But frankly, you have to admit that some arguments in this thread are simply ridiculous. Living Dead doesn't only have negative points. It's not unusable. It doesn't require that much effort to deal with.
Besides, there's no rule saying that all three "invulnerability" skills must be on an equal footing. Is Living Dead good enough to do what it's supposed to do? Yes it is. Could it be better? Sure. Does it absolutly need to be? Not at all.

[Duskane]

That's actually damn good, too good actually. SE would do something like make it do a full Reverse where damage heals you, but heals hurt you and you can still die, so a panicked healer who sees you at low HP kills you with their OGCD heal bomb trying to save you at low health. XD

But planned, even that would be better than the current LD. Especially if it was like you're suggesting where heals and damage both healed the DRK.

Itll be good but its not hallowed good since you could still gets debuffs from Tank busters like susano unlike hallow ground

The healers heals hurting dark would be a good reference to older ff games

[Chrono_Rising]

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@Chrono_Rising: Most of my post was about the automatic trigger of Living Dead. Not the fact that you can (and should) heal and remove it before the full 10 seconds. I know that you can remove Living Dead before the end. Duh. Almost two thirds of your post missed my point. I seriously cannot be bothered to do a quote war with that.

Well it’s not what you wrote:

The automatic proc guarantees the full duration of the 10 seconds "1hp" state no matter what happens.

Even with benediction you will not get the full 10 seconds just because it automatically popped, nothing guarantees the full duration of Living Dead. I wouldn’t get into a quote war either when I am quoted being flat out wrong either. The first half of my post is pointing out you are making points which I already made and acknowledged about the warrior invuln which I again supported with the fact that these strategies work in the majority of the turns this tier. The point was that there are a variety of ways to handle holmgang, but Living dead doesn't you just have to heal it. This leads me to believe that you didn’t really read it and are more reactionary posting.

The second half of my post is addressing this idea that the automatic trigger was a guaranteed invuln. Your posts seem to claim that Holmgang suffers greatly from human error, and that this isn't a thing on living dead. I'm was attempting to show you some of the ways living dead can be impacted by human error.

I'll just bring one thing quickly here: you talked about Living Dead having an issue in O4S in that it required to be correctly timed. And then, in the very next paragraph, you went on to say that timings aren't a big deal after all.

I assume you are talking about this:

I like the fact that you took Neo Exdeath as an example, it's probably one of the lastest end game content where this difference is the most obvious. With Holmgang, your timing needs to be perfect. Even more so during the delta followed by a random laser that you need to avoid, which can be problematic because of the root. The chance for mistakes is quite high. With Living Dead, the chance of messing up is almost zero thanks to that safety cushion.

Living dead also has issues with thunder since healers may also need to dodge, which brings us into the early movement/removing walking dead debuff from pre-healing the debuff off. It was particularly bad for the second thunder buster. And if you had to time your LD for the thunder then you needed to pop it early on the first one, and if you popped it too early you would need to die to start the walking debuff and keep your invuln, which was possible provided you were not getting healed during that time. Be slightly late in use and it wasn't up when you needed it. Again, all skills have human error.
As I’ve pointed out, there are still errors that can happen, the cushion is not a panacea. Your points mainly lay on human error factors, the point is human error still impacts living dead. Again, most of the cushion value is in time management. And we are drastically overstating the difficulty of popping a cooldown at the last second to get additional benefits. For example holding Hallowed to catch two busters in o8s by popping it later in the cast, it is not particularly difficult.

Lets break this down, you claim that Holmgang has to be timed and the change of messing up Living dead is almost zero, and immune to the human error you are claiming holmgang suffers from.

With Living Dead, the chance of messing up is almost zero thanks to that safety cushion.

I point out that Living Dead also has the issue of being timed (because what skill doesn’t need to be timed?) and is also prone to error, but then go on to claim that I think this whole timing thing is being blown out of proportion in terms of its difficulty. And somehow I’m the one that doesn’t understand? Interesting.

Dude. Don't argue against Living Dead just for the sake of it, expecially if you don't even believe in your own arguments. Otherwise, back to square one where I made my first post: the number of people arguing against Living Dead with false/over exaggerated arguments is damn too high. Or just be honest and say that you simply want to vent and that Living Dead seems like a good scapegoat.
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I believe the things I’ve said, and believe I put in time and effort to actually consider the posts and issues. Your points have been pointed out as being misleading or flat out wrong, but your defense is to claim those correcting you don’t understand. Cool, I’m going to see my way out of this posting argument since clearly meaningful conversation is impossible.

[Mycow8me]

I lack the motivation to counter argue your post so please settle with a reactionary gif and lets agree to disagree.

[InfiniDragon]

Itll be good but its not hallowed good since you could still gets debuffs from Tank busters like susano unlike hallow ground

The healers heals hurting dark would be a good reference to older ff games

Yep, and that's fine because I'm still operating on the idea it's a shorter CD. So the shorter CD would make up for not being Hallowed.

[Ekimmak]

Sigmascape Savage 1.0 and 2.0 did a good job of exploiting the holes in Holmgang's kit. You can't solo the stack winds from 2.0 (specifically the second one, nothing nearby to Holmgang to), and if your co-tank in 1.0 gets trapped before a tankswap, it is impossible to drop the prey marker at far back and get back in time to holmgang, I've tried (instead, have to place it not as far back, so you have time to return).

/shrug. Just my thoughts on the matter.

[Noldornir]

I'd make it work like this:

Grants the effect of Living Dead.
When HP is reduced to 0 while under the effect of Living Dead, instead of becoming KO'd, your status will change to Walking Dead. ---> Change in ---> CANNOT BE HEALED WHILE ACTIVE (heals will perform 0 healing on you)
Living Dead Duration: 10s
While under the effect of Walking Dead, most attacks will not lower your HP below 1. ---> Change in ---> While a walking dead you heal back for X% of total damage done (but you are immune to all other forms of heals).

If, before the Walking Dead timer runs out, HP is 100% restored, the effect will fade. ---> Change in ---> just remove this line
If 100% is not restored, you will be KO'd.
Walking Dead Duration: 10s

So:

DRK triggers LD (10 secs)
if his HP does not get <= 1 you waste it

if HP hits 1 or below:
You cant be pushed under 1HP
BUT
You have 10 secs to full heal yourself (else you die)

The X percentage you get (from ALL the damage you deal) should be high enough (150-200%) maybe?

This way the skill would be a DPS race trigger

OR could just heal back for less but let's get rid of the "you die if not 100%"

Timings, procs could be reworked but i'd like to see an "undead" DK sapping life out of his enemies

[Phoenicia]

I'd make it work like this:

Grants the effect of Living Dead.
When HP is reduced to 0 while under the effect of Living Dead, instead of becoming KO'd, your status will change to Walking Dead. ---> Change in ---> CANNOT BE HEALED WHILE ACTIVE (heals will perform 0 healing on you)
Living Dead Duration: 10s
While under the effect of Walking Dead, most attacks will not lower your HP below 1. ---> Change in ---> While a walking dead you heal back for X% of total damage done (but you are immune to all other forms of heals).

If, before the Walking Dead timer runs out, HP is 100% restored, the effect will fade. ---> Change in ---> just remove this line
If 100% is not restored, you will be KO'd.
Walking Dead Duration: 10s

So:

DRK triggers LD (10 secs)
if his HP does not get <= 1 you waste it

if HP hits 1 or below:
You cant be pushed under 1HP
BUT
You have 10 secs to full heal yourself (else you die)

The X percentage you get (from ALL the damage you deal) should be high enough (150-200%) maybe?

This way the skill would be a DPS race trigger

OR could just heal back for less but let's get rid of the "you die if not 100%"

Timings, procs could be reworked but i'd like to see an "undead" DK sapping life out of his enemies

That would make it just as bad as it already is, it's just shifting the burden of removing LD from 2 healers to 1 tank. And it does not stop there, as you need a target to life steal from, you end up adding all of Holmgang's restrictions to it.

Also please, DARK knight is NOT "death" knight. The only thing that relates to undeath is the move that's causing all the problems the class has and it feels out of place even thematically.