Dark Knight under review: Feedback to the Developers and Community Team

[Aniya_Estlihn]

To be fair, WAR was heavily reworked in 2.1. It was far more broken than any tank ever have been, but still, they did it back then.

That was then, this is now. No job in 4.X has had a total and complete rework, nor can we ever expect them to do so mid-patch again. It's essentially the same logic as them not releasing a job mid-expansion as well, it just won't happen due to the time and resources it would cost them to do so. 4.2's WAR was not a rework, there were no changes to the flow of the job at a basic level, the only thing they did was combine some skills so that it requires less buttons to get similar results as to what it could already do; with the added bonus of auto Direct Crits and some added effects associated to the new IR and the alteration to Shake it Off.

[Kowen]

What a lame excuse ! So Warrior can be rework in a regular patch but not DRK ? Seriously ? /disgusted. I don't think it's a bad translation but a bad communication for sure. So lame...

The 4.2 Warrior changes were also described beforehand as "improvements to usability," even though they ended up pretty big, so these DRK changes might actually end up being significant. Here's to hoping...

[Reynhart]

It's essentially the same logic as them not releasing a job mid-expansion as well, it just won't happen due to the time and resources it would cost them to do so.

No, it's not. Correcting a significant inbalance has nothing to do with creating a complete new job from scratch. Especially when tank balance has been invoked to justify why we didn't received a 4th tank.

And even without talking about 2.1, WAR had one skill completely changed and another one heavily modified, but they can't change Dark Arts so that it would be a toggle or even a short duration skill instead of a one-time effect, or reduce/remove the absurd MP cost of Dark Passenger, a thing that it shouldn't have in the first place considering it already has a cooldown ?

[Valdegarde]

No, it's not. Correcting a significant inbalance has nothing to do with creating a complete new job from scratch. Especially when tank balance has been invoked to justify why we didn't received a 4th tank.

And even without talking about 2.1, WAR had one skill completely changed and another one heavily modified, but they can't change Dark Arts so that it would be a toggle or even a short duration skill instead of a one-time effect, or reduce/remove the absurd MP cost of Dark Passenger, a thing that it shouldn't have in the first place considering it already has a cooldown ?

That alone isn't too much different than the halving of the beast gauge upon changing stances and how it interacts with the job's flow. That's without bringing in the obvious Shake It Off, potency adjustments, Inner Release, etc. The only thing Dark Knight has got remotely on that level is the Quietus draining MP change, which can be argued to be more of an emergency fix than a rework anyway.

I guess we'll talk again in the aftermath, who really knows what these "substantial" changes will be. Warrior certainly has received a lot of attention and care patch by patch thus far (definition of a "rework" aside) and it's time to see another tank catch up.

[Launched]

To be fair, WAR was heavily reworked in 2.1. It was far more broken than any tank ever have been, but still, they did it back then.

It really wasn't a rework. It was a straight buff to add/increase mitigation on a bunch of skills, with the exception of Inner Beast getting reduced healing. We didn't go from a self healing tank to a mitigation tank, we went from a tank with no mitigation and bad healing to a mitigation tank.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

I know these are probably not the changes you guys wanted, but what you are getting sounds like it'll be pretty damn good?
I want them to rework the Lily system on WHM, but if they told me to wait 6 months while buffing everything else I had up I'd be happy.

[Valdegarde]

I know these are probably not the changes you guys wanted, but what you are getting sounds like it'll be pretty damn good?
I want them to rework the Lily system on WHM, but if they told me to wait 6 months while buffing everything else I had up I'd be happy.

I don't think any Dark Knight is necessarily sad or ungrateful, just between tentatively doubtful and cautiously optimistic, considering we've been burned by tiny potency adjustments to Souleater in the past that were supposed to have addressed problems with the class. Much of Dark Knight's issues are a sense of not being treated fairly compared to the other tanks, hence being told the solution is so far out when other tanks have had meaningful adjustments as patches go is worrying. I for one will not be counting my chickens before they hatch, yet I do have an excitement about how a job very dear to me might finally make progress in evolution.

[Aniya_Estlihn]

No, it's not. Correcting a significant inbalance has nothing to do with creating a complete new job from scratch. Especially when tank balance has been invoked to justify why we didn't received a 4th tank.

It takes time, and resources, that's all they care about. It's obvious, they mention "it would take some time" and how they have very limited time between each patch. This has nothing to with with the act of creating a new job but it is undeniable that introducing a job mid expansion and fully reworking a job would require the same amount of time and resources—they've said it themselves. It's just not feasible. So where you're getting that idea from is beyond me.

And even without talking about 2.1, WAR had one skill completely changed and another one heavily modified, but they can't change Dark Arts so that it would be a toggle or even a short duration skill instead of a one-time effect, or reduce/remove the absurd MP cost of Dark Passenger, a thing that it shouldn't have in the first place considering it already has a cooldown ?

Did they really though? They combined Berserk and IR, and added auto Critical Direct Hits and removed Beast gauge usage, untied it from Unchained and made a new trait to accompany the IR+Berserk merger, but functionally the core features of the job remained the same. IR was not as heavily ingrained into WAR like Dark Arts is with DRK; which has effects listed on individual skills, specific potency increases based around our bloody stances that are listed on multiple skills withn our kit. Simply put, IR and Berserk are buffs and exist on their own without direct influence on other skills in a WAR's kit, Dark Arts; while a buff to DPS, is ultimately a mechanic that is at the very core of Dark Knight's identity that poses a problem were they to change it in such a drastic way.

Inner Release was not altered in a way that changed what kind of skill it was. It had a duration before the 4.2 changes, it has one now. It acted as a timed buff then, and it still does. They literally just changed Berserk and combined it with IR then did a bunch of potency changes to make up for the loss of Berserk at 70. That's really not a "complete change" nor is it really all that heavily modified. Dark Arts being turned into a persistent buff that falls off after its duration would be introducing a brand new action as the previous Dark Arts would no longer be able to exist as the use and application would differ greatly; think like how 3.X Delirium and 4.0 delirium didn't share the same action button and the old one was replaced with a grayed out icon... that is ultimately what you're asking for a new skill to replace Dark Arts. That's where your logic fails.

Furthermore, the idea of turning Dark Arts into an Inner Release window, just with a tinge of edge, is simply uninspired and I fail to understand why you, or anyone, would ever want that. Ultimately, we should be wanting unique gameplay that bolsters our identity as a Dark Knight, not to be a an edgy copy of WAR.

or reduce/remove the absurd MP cost of Dark Passeng

I sure would like to know what's convinced you this isn't being changed? Do you by chance have the patch notes? I'd love to see them if you do, because this is baseless conjecture that provides little value to this discussion at all. I'll quote what we learned today about the changes so that you can stop making such... weird claims.

decided to prioritize the clear and understandable feed back and adjusted as much as they could with the available time. The changes to Dark knight will be basically improvements to usability and buffs to both their DPS and defensive capabilities.

Where here; or anywhere for that matter, is it said that there will be no changes to Dark Passenger?

The live letter said there'd be eight changes including damage, defensive and usability adjustments, as well as the change to Plunge's speed and animations lock.

WAR had 15 changes in 4.2, all were previously said to be "changes to general usability," meanwhile we now have confirmation that not only are they changing DRK's usability, but also it's damage and defensive capabilities and we know that these adjustments are based around our feedback. And since one of the biggest communal complaints for Japanese and English players in the fact that DP is wholly and completely useless outside of AoE situation; and its cost is far too high, it's one of the biggest cnadidates for one of these changes. So for all you know, one of those changes could in fact be Dark Passenger, and you're just blowing your gasket about it for no reason.

I myself am actually excited that I may be able to actually pick up my main for Savage again and not be stuck floating WAR and PLD because that's all that groups want anymore. Dark Knight could use any positive changes they make to it, and we're getting nine changes in a single patch. yes, they could screw up, but now that we know these changes are directly related to our feedback rather than what they wanted for the job—there's very little room to doubt that these changes will be good for the job as a whole and probably consist of many of the smaller alterations we've been clamoring about and encouraging for months on end now.

[Derio]

I am just glad they are doing something. I remember how PLD was all 3.x

[Hierro]

a significant inbalance

Stopped reading right there.