BRD/MCH having their own piercing?

[HyoMinPark]

The removal of piercing is the nerf I'm talking about. Mch/brd shouldn't be compensated for it going away though, only drg should get a flat 5% potency buff.

I never said that BRD/MCH should be compensated for the removal of piercing.

It could open the option of missing some utility for maybe a slight damage gain, instead of the way it is currently where they get both the top damage contribution AND utility. It's entirely unfair and unbalanced.

NIN offers more in terms of damage contribution than BRD/MCH do. DRG also outweighs BRD’s contribution if double-ranged is present, and is only slightly behind if there is only one. Same with MCH. In terms of personal damage, BRD is the lowest, only barely surpassing RDM at very few percentiles, and the absolute max. MCH is consistently around 5th. BLM/SMN are at the top of the highest percentiles in terms of personal damage.

Play a caster for one raid tier and maybe you'll start to comprehend a slight bit just how badly brd/mch have monopolized the ranged slots. From damage synergy, extra party defensives, and refresh being 10x more useful than mana shift. It's been busted since 3.3, and there hasn't been so much as a glimpse of it being fixed since. The only time it's even considered better to bring any caster is if a raise is needed for the group.

No need to sound rude. I’m well aware of the problems with the meta; maybe if you would actually read my posts you would see that I am advocating for changes instead of against them. Your response to me makes it sound like I’m entirely fine with the meta as it currently stands; it is worth mentioning that the removal of Disembowel would also benefit me, as a BRD main, because I would no longer have to kiss my personal damage good-bye if a party I am in decides to run MNK/NIN, or NIN/SAM, or MNK/SAM.

After SMN was buffed in 4.1, it actually began to replace one range in certain comps—for Ultimate, it actually replaced BRD because Dismantle was so valued for progression, and BRD offers no equivalent of that. In Deltascape, groups were starting to sub out MCH for SMN. In 4.2 after the BLM changes, groups are subbing out MCH for them; MCH is also being subbed out for triple-melee in V6S. The casters are starting to get a chance back at comps, and the removal of Disembowel will help that.

Please go back and read my posts again. Because you still seem to be under the impression I would rather things stay as they are.

[Remedi]

Well trobadour is not really a replacement, but has advantages, like beign able to be used during a trio since it doesn't require a target to be used

[HyoMinPark]

Well trobadour is not really a replacement, but has advantages, like beign able to be used during a trio since it doesn't require a target to be used

It would all be dependent on the song the BRD is in at the time. Preferred would be Minuet because the Trios are full of magic damage, with Mage’s being the second preferred, and Army’s being near useless. Troubadour is a great skill, but it is a PITA to use optimally sometimes.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Play a caster for one raid tier and maybe you'll start to comprehend a slight bit just how badly brd/mch have monopolized the ranged slots. From damage synergy, extra party defensives, and refresh being 10x more useful than mana shift. It's been busted since 3.3, and there hasn't been so much as a glimpse of it being fixed since. The only time it's even considered better to bring any caster is if a raise is needed for the group.

If you're going to come out swinging, perhaps you should research beforehand. Looking at the top ten speed runs of each fight Summoner appears...

Four times in Phantom Train; three other groups run triple melee
Once in Demon Chadarnok; seven of the remaining groups run triple melee
Nine times in Guardian
Eight times in Kefka
Five times in God Kefka

Not only does this not represent a monopoly but Machinist has been benched almost entirely in favor Summoner or triple melee. In the event piercing is removed, Machinist will straight up die without some tweaks. It's decidedly unpopular and provides nowhere near enough to compete with Summoner now, let alone without piercing.

[Zerathor]

If you're going to come out swinging, perhaps you should research beforehand. Looking at the top ten speed runs of each fight Summoner appears...

Four times in Phantom Train; three other groups run triple melee
Once in Demon Chadarnok; seven of the remaining groups run triple melee
Nine times in Guardian
Eight times in Kefka
Five times in God Kefka

Not only does this not represent a monopoly but Machinist has been benched almost entirely in favor Summoner or triple melee. In the event piercing is removed, Machinist will straight up die without some tweaks. It's decidedly unpopular and provides nowhere near enough to compete with Summoner now, let alone without piercing.

I'm so sorry. It must be so painful to only have mch in 5/10 top god kefka speed runs. Such a tragedy. This needs to be fixed immediately, why shouldn't they be 10/10? Come on squeenix, think of the poor gun bards. Why should a ranged physical ever have to think of needing to compete with a.... caster.... gross. Casters can't be meta right?

[Dualgunner]

I'm so sorry. It must be so painful to only have mch in 5/10 top god kefka speed runs. Such a tragedy. This needs to be fixed immediately, why shouldn't they be 10/10? Come on squeenix, think of the poor gun bards. Why should a ranged physical ever have to think of needing to compete with a.... caster.... gross. Casters can't be meta right?

Her point: MCH will not survive in not only meta (to cover myself, nothing needs defending in any meta) but general play without some sort of buff, as even now they're virtually worthless without BRD and DRG. There is no situation where you would take a MCH over a BRD if you had to choose between them.
Also her point: Summoner is in the top 10 speed rankings 27/50 times. Trip Melee is 10/50, leaving double Phys Ranged as 13/50. In other words, people are more likely to take SMN for speedkills than MCH. Which means your point "The only time it's considered better to bring a caster is if you need a raise" is incorrect.
Is it also worth mentioning Summoner has over twice as many uploaded parses as Machinist despite double phys ranged meta? 24,304 to MCH's 11,640. And that's WITH being the meta, mind. Unless MCH got some tuning after a piercing removal, it would be even less popular than it is now, and it's already the least popular job if upload numbers are anything to go by.

You attacked: MCH must be meta 100% of the time no matter what

inb4 continuation of sarcastic "boohoo" for MCH despite SMN absolutely crushing it despite the technical meta.

Good job, you missed.

[Remedi]

It would all be dependent on the song the BRD is in at the time. Preferred would be Minuet because the Trios are full of magic damage, with Mage’s being the second preferred, and Army’s being near useless. Troubadour is a great skill, but it is a PITA to use optimally sometimes.

True, but I think usually BRDs create a rotation to have the correct song at the right moment no?

[Sunako]

There is no situation where you would take a MCH over a BRD if you had to choose between them.

That is not true. MCH was really good for ultimate because of dismantle. For ultimate BRD was not any more popular than MCH. Current savage is just that faceroll ppl not care about anything else than dps.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I'm so sorry. It must be so painful to only have mch in 5/10 top god kefka speed runs. Such a tragedy. This needs to be fixed immediately, why shouldn't they be 10/10? Come on squeenix, think of the poor gun bards. Why should a ranged physical ever have to think of needing to compete with a.... caster.... gross. Casters can't be meta right?

I would spell out how woefully obtuse this response was, but Dualgunner did it for me. Regardless, you assume I have some personal attachment to Machinist? Why would it be "so painful" when I'm an omni-melee raider?

[Dualgunner]

That is not true. MCH was really good for ultimate because of dismantle. For ultimate BRD was not any more popular than MCH. Current savage is just that faceroll ppl not care about anything else than dps.

Okay, one place where MCH is good for one skill, but if I'm not reading FFLogs wrong...
There are currently 37 bards to 13 machinists cleared through.

EDIT: Oh and also looking at these upload numbers, SMN is at 40, matched by DRG and only beaten by NIN.