Please let us buy gil since it's not pay to win.

[KisaiTenshi]

It's not hard to make gil in this game -.- people are just lazy. Is it really that hard to understand that gil buyers / sellers are a plague to the economical balance of the game?

All RMT is. F2P games are destroyed by them, or the companies own greed with gachapon/lootboxes.

A "perfect" MMO game would have no ability to engage in RMT, microtransactions, lootboxes/gachapon. But that has to be designed into the core of the game by not generating any material/money rewards at all. Some of the "minecraft" type of games have the right idea here, but they have embarrassingly poor combat.

A subscription MMO, should minimally prevent RMT by using NPC's as a escrow service, not directly mailing items. Direct-trades, or being able to "drop money sacks" to other players is how RMT bots get around it in other games. An escrow service would prevent "uneven" trades. So if you want to sell X item to Y person, the price could be set to anything, but the buyer would only be given the best market price for that exact item quality. For RMT to work in such an environment would require the RMT'er to craft their way to a point where they could "sign" their HQ crafted items so they are unique. That's just too risky. The other way would require the RMT'er to buy -ALL- the items they want to monopolize on and thus they are the always the best price. That is also risky. Hence there is more incentive for crafters to produce signed items because they would get the best price for those, and you can't resell them, as only NPC will only accept signed items from the crafter themselves. Marketboards would list all items that name in order of quality, then price, thus RMT could not buy out the market because they would have to take a loss, destroy the items to recover the materials, and re-craft the items. Signed items become untradeable once collected from escrow.

But that's too damn complicated unless crafting is the only way to produce better gear for better combat experiences. Since FFXIV basically runs on gear-grind, crafting is too slow, and acts as a gate for players without money. Hence the tomes. Unfortunately the tomes system is an unlimited supply of resources, and the materials can be generated infinitely. So there's no incentive to ever buy crafted gear unless you're on the bleeding edge of a new raid.

[Vstarstruck]

Simply put: no competition= no winning= no pay to win... if you could pk other players, or had guild wars, or if hunts dropped ultra rare items that only the person who did the most damage got and the BiS gears came from the mogstation... that's pay to win... gil only lets you save time... it's a convenience...

there is nothing to win in this game then, so what is wrong with SE having gil in the mog shop?

[Skivvy]

Simply put: no competition= no winning= no pay to win... if you could pk other players, or had guild wars, or if hunts dropped ultra rare items that only the person who did the most damage got and the BiS gears came from the mogstation... that's pay to win... gil only lets you save time... it's a convenience...

P2W does not only apply to PvP games. A very basic way to view this - Does buying a service/item impact your game play? If so, that can be considered P2W. You are buying an advantage that is not available to non-paying customers.

[EmmaVirgin]

didnt read all post just want to say my opinion.

i think its a bad idea. gil is already valueless. since stormblood is out 10-20 millions are breadcrumb. if everybody can just simple buy gil with real money why should anyone go out and gather or craft some stuff to sell? and then there is nothing to buy with the gil.



mr. y. p. dont open this gate!

[KaivaC]

Then you do not view selling stat potions as P2W, how would you feel if SE started doing that? Using moogle coins for stat boosts? Because the same logic is applied to stat potions as retainers, If you are willing to admit that, then it is fine I guess. i just do not like the moving goalpost theme your showing (and my earlier post explained why that was, something you did not comment on). I am a bit confused why you did not comment on the main point and this off tangent about agreeing or disagreeing.

How about this? can you explain how stat potions is P2W and what SE is doing with this app and selling MB space isn't? Because as far as I explained, something you did not comment on, your logic fits both how both fit P2W or not P2W, basically you have to view both as P2W or both not P2W, as I used your own argument to apply that concept.

Point proven. But fine. Clearly, you won't be satisfied until you argue with every single person that disagrees with a definition of yours. Imagine that, people with opinions different than yours, but humble enough to acknowledge your own points - something you clearly cannot do. Do I have an issue with stat potions being sold for real money? Yes, because it'll affect the food market. What little value gil has left will just tank even further. Why I didn't comment on your points earlier? Because again, I acknowledged you had some validity and I left it at that. You are the one that is wanting to continue an argument. This is now the third post in which I have repeated similar sentiments.

If you want a reason that'll satisfy you, I just don't feel like arguing with you. Simple as that. I'm all for the debate, but you just move in circles and advance nothing. Maybe come out of that little glass house of yours and understand my point of view, and perhaps I'll humor you. As it stands, while I've acknowledged your end, you seem to be stuck over there, picking arguments with pretty much anyone.

Well, since I hit my posting limit for today, lemme just add in this little blurb to what you said below.

BS! you know very darn well they would stack and I am fairly sure no one uses food outside something cheap for leveling for that exp +3% (like 1-3 gil at npc) and savage. You honestly think cash shop buffs would really effect that? or you are just trying to claw at weak reasons to try to defend yourself?

HOLD on a second...????????!! you are worried about the impact on the food market when this p2w (more so app) when this allows someone to control EVERYTHING?!?!?!?!?11 what backwards logic is this? See? again by your OWN logic with stat potions, you are also proving the app is PTW! If someone wants to fully exploit this ap, its 1600 sale slots, don't try to suggest no one is gonna try this, esp when one chr can spam undercut at a touch of a button while being on another chr, this is not just one market but FULL CONTROL of the MB. The only question is, will there be someone in this game? maybe no one will find it worth whaling on, I am sure there be a few (one per server off a few servers) that will fully exploit this app.

I forgot to bring up, I know someone in debate if they want to do this, has duel box, so basically 3200 sale slots when this ap comes out (discord contact, not on my server) and rich af on her server. She hates the idea of exploiting people but on the other side, the reason she is debating in doing it, is from the simple fact to show SE what someone can do if they chose to. On the other hand, she is actually worried ill get her banned trying to control the market to that extent. So if I actually know someone that has that kind of power but choosing not to do so, what makes you think there is no one that will try it?

So...now you are making arguments for me? Well, might as well go all the way and finish the rest of this argument yourself, you know? I believe in you. Go Vstar!

I'm pretty sure that food was also used for crafters. That extra 3-4% makes a difference with some HQ crafts. Dunno how you're getting 'weak reasons to defend myself' when I'm not even really arguing in the first place. Oh, but CAPITAL LETTERS! EXCLAMATION POINTS AND QUESTION MARKS!?!?!?!?! To emphasize a non-existent point in a one-sided argument that you are having with yourself. Pretty sure that when the app drops, there are going to be quite a few whales who will take advantage of the microtransactions in order to control the market. You keep on circling back to this P2W definition, and now this is post number fou...oh wait, I have to capitalize it for emphasis...

*ahem*

POST NUMBAH FOUR in which I am telling you that I identify P2W in a certain term. I don't why know you're getting so hell bent out of shape because I won't change my definition of it. It's my opinion. And once again, I'm telling you, I simply don't agree with your definition, but it is likely pretty valid. I'll even venture out to say that for others, maybe the market board part of their definition of what P2W is. I just don't share that viewpoint. Oh, and the paragraph that you edited in after you posted...umm...I never made that kind of argument, so yeah, not sure where you're even pulling this from. But have fun resolving the argument that you're creating for me.

[Vstarstruck]

Point proven. But fine. Clearly, you won't be satisfied until you argue with every single person that disagrees with a definition of yours. Imagine that, people with opinions different than yours, but humble enough to acknowledge your own points - something you clearly cannot do. Do I have an issue with stat potions being sold for real money? Yes, because it'll affect the food market.

BS! you know very darn well they would stack and I am fairly sure no one uses food outside something cheap for leveling for that exp +3% (like 1-3 gil at npc) and savage. You honestly think cash shop buffs would really effect that? or you are just trying to claw at weak reasons to try to defend yourself?

HOLD on a second...????????!! you are worried about the impact on the food market when this p2w (more so app) when this allows someone to control EVERYTHING?!?!?!?!?11 what backwards logic is this? See? again by your OWN logic with stat potions, you are also proving the app is PTW! If someone wants to fully exploit this ap, its 1600 sale slots, don't try to suggest no one is gonna try this, esp when one chr can spam undercut at a touch of a button while being on another chr, this is not just one market but FULL CONTROL of the MB. The only question is, will there be someone in this game? maybe no one will find it worth whaling on, I am sure there be a few (one per server off a few servers) that will fully exploit this app.

I forgot to bring up, I know someone in debate if they want to do this, has duel box, so basically 3200 sale slots when this ap comes out (discord contact, not on my server) and rich af on her server. She hates the idea of exploiting people but on the other side, the reason she is debating in doing it, is from the simple fact to show SE what someone can do if they chose to. On the other hand, she is actually worried ill get her banned trying to control the market to that extent. So if I actually know someone that has that kind of power but choosing not to do so, what makes you think there is no one that will try it?

[KageTokage]

I'm honestly glad gil is worthless, since that way the non-RMT botters scarcely benefit from farming it.

Adding more gil sinks is honestly probably the last thing I want to happen, since there are more creative things to lock rewards behind.

[Lord_Umbra]

We kinder already have RMT, Hmm.. makes me curious the class skip gives allagan worth 300k total, I know you probably can't re-use the books but I doubt mog station will stop from buying another in a separate purchase & don't have use book for the allagan pieces to appear in your inventory.
Now I wonder what trade value is on RMT sites Mog £20 for 300k how much would £20 go on RMT Sites.

[JackHatchet]

I'm fairly certain they can add gil selling and half the community would be ok with it. 40% would be frustrated, but tolerate it, and less than 3# would actually quit.

[Jojoya]

True P2W eliminates the need for other player involvement. You pay the game company, they in turn directly give you what you're trying to buy.

Just about everything discussed in this thread as being P2W involves the cooperation of other players to achieve. You need other players doing things to earn gil then being willing to "sell" it if there's a WoW style token, you need other players capable of clearing content with an undersized party to be selling carries, etc. No one is really winning anything because it still requires other players who have already "won" to make it happen.

As long as there is a need for other player involvement, there's a check on the system to keep it under control.

P2W and RMT will never go away as long as there are people who are willing to spend real money to get what they want instead of earning it through their own effort. Better to implement systems that reduce those exploiting those types of people than to let them run unchecked.

A WoW token type system would at least the least reduce RMT and account compromise. It wouldn't have any effect on inflation because any gil that's been hoarded out of circulation would simply be replacing the gil that's generated by the RMT bots. With luck, any profit generated by SE from such a system would be used to improve FFXIV. That's where Blizzard went wrong - instead of restricting the WoW token to purchasing WoW specific services, they opened it up to all Blizzard games and that forced them to divert the revenue generated to those other games instead of using it to improve WoW.