Stop with the pay to win advanages for retainers, suggestions on fixes

[RitsukoSonoda]

Buying extra retainers isn't pay to win.

If the potential money gain from ventures seems like highly lucrative income then you don't have the initial capital needed to really use the extra retainers. A majority of the items you get from ventures tends to be junk that sells for a few thousand gil.

By the time you have gotten to the point of max leveling and gearing your retainers to attempt getting rare drops from retainer ventures you should have far better methods of getting gil.

Having more retainers means you can post more sales on the MB at a time. Doesn't mean they sell any faster when they are posted.

OP most likely excessively hoards and wants more retainer storage but doesn't want to pay for said storage. This isn't pay to win either. This is buying a convenience or could be called renting extra storage space. Its no different than paying to have more cloud storage. Pay to win would be something like SE selling a set of gear on Mog Station that doubles all your attributes in PvP or buying a subscription item that allows you matchmaking priority over anyone that doesn't have the item when queuing duty finder.

[RaynerH]

if I ever get to the point where having more retainers is this important and I'm playing this game to virtually sell things feel free to kill me. I already work for a living in real life. I don't need that shit in my leisure time. This whole mb and retainer nonsense is for the birds but I guess to each their own.

[Alleo]

Savage is released every 6 months. By that time, any Free Company that tackles it in a competitive way will have more gils that whatever is needed to buy (And Pentameld) the brand new crafted items released at the same time as savage.

Isnt that true about any P2W item? I mean just because someone bought a booster to have better stats does not mean that others cant just do the same fight with similiar stats. In the end if you only own the normal amount of free retainers and you make the exact same amount of items as the one with more retainers, the one with the higher amount of paid retainers will still sell them faster because he does not have to wait until the old ones sold. Thus he kinda wins or at least he has an advantage thanks to real money.

Because isnt that what P2W (or pay to advance) is about? That people might have the same basics but thanks to real money one of them has an advantage.

[Musashidon]

Because isnt that what P2W (or pay to advance) is about? That people might have the same basics but thanks to real money one of them has an advantage.

no p2w is about paying to win. this really only affects pvp games since heavy pve games can't really p2w players you got games like ff brave exvius or dissidia or even record keeper where people pay to pull more characters/gear but being better than another player almost doesn't affect you at all.

but games like trickster online where a lvl 200 could destroy a lvl 400 due to buying a p2w weapon on cash shop making it impossible to lose to anyone without it is p2w try playing any R2 game (league of angels, dragon pals ect) where you throw money for glamour/power ups that make it impossible to stay competitive in the game without throwing lots of money at the game.

[Reynhart]

Because isnt that what P2W (or pay to advance) is about? That people might have the same basics but thanks to real money one of them has an advantage.

No, pay to win is to have access to better items or same items, but faster.
If the "basic" hardcore raider needs 2 months to earn enough gil to buy the best items he needs to raid, that will only be released 4 months later, at the same time as the next raid like crafted items usually are, it doesn't matter if someone else earn the same gils one month earlier. And it also doesn't matter if that person earns more gils.
Even better. By being a crafter and gatherer, you actually don't need gils to obtain those best items you'll need to raid. And I'm pretty sure most hardcore CL will have crafters/gatheres in their own rank so that they don't rely on the market boards.

[Vstarstruck]

no p2w is about paying to win. this really only affects pvp games since heavy pve games can't really p2w players you got games like ff brave exvius or dissidia or even record keeper where people pay to pull more characters/gear but being betterthan another player almost doesn't affect you at all.

but games like trickster online where a lvl 200 could destroy a lvl 400 due to buying a p2w weapon on cash shop making it impossible to lose to anyone without it is p2w try playing any R2 game (league of angels, dragon pals ect) where you throw money for glamour/power ups that make it impossible to stay competitive in the game without throwing lots of money at the game.

Yeah no, this is defenily a point of view problem. "this only afects pvp games" is simply not true, you are only saying that because your focus is battle content. The MB does not really help you advance as far as battle content is consdered but you are forgetting one main thing, and I think a post I just made in a different thread fits here:

For the "pay to win" it depends who you ask. Like if someone only cares about battle content you get this:


But to people where all they do to is play the markets and don't care about what most people refer to as "endgame" the market board on itself as standalone, yeah its pay to win. You are going to have a huge advantage selling (right now) 180 slots of items, and after the app is released, 200) per character. Someone paying for base alone is limited to 40, 40 x 8 chrs is 320 sell slots. The problem here is the time it takes to log on and log off and managing each chr. so a person with 2 charaters that have 400 slots of sales is going to have huge advantages over someone paying for base sub only just due to time factors.

There is also another thing to consider here, why should ones taste cost more then another? Someone playing on one job only is fine with the game and I am sure finds enough room for 2 retainers, where people that like to craft and only want to craft and only care about making most sales as possible, why do they have to pay more then others for full enjoyment in that area?

There are people that ONLY like to craft, ONLY like to make gil, because that is what they like to do, see how much they can get. If the MB in and itself was standlone (like not looking the effects it has to play content) it is pay to win. You are paying for a massive advantage over base sub. You are using REAL money to pay for an advantage, that is pay to win, that is what retainers are for this game, and even more so with the app release.

[Musashidon]

Yeah no, this is defenily a point of view problem.

i can ask someone if the earth is flat and they say yes but i guess it's true because they believe it.

to counter your end part there what about mount collectors? or minion? emote? music notes? why must they pay more for their enjoyment?

because it doesn't matter.

[KisaiTenshi]

no p2w is about paying to win. this really only affects pvp games since heavy pve games can't really p2w players you got games like ff brave exvius or dissidia or even record keeper where people pay to pull more characters/gear but being better than another player almost doesn't affect you at all.

"Pay2Win" is a rather broad term, basically it encompasses ANY cash shop item that should not be a cash shop item, or any recurring payment that directly changes the ability to play the game.

Here's the worst examples from F2P games I've played the longest:

Archeage, Wizardry Online(NA) - Buy "service tokens", sell for money, or use on yourself. People with the deepest pockets sell them, and thus can buy their way to the top. Mabinogi players simply bought the physical NX cards and sold the codes to each other for in game money.

Mabinogi - "New outfit (with bonus stat)", so now if you want that bonus stat you need that new outfit. Plus...

Mabinogi, Wizardry, Archeage - Gachapon (loot boxes) , where 99% of the items are trash and that 1% item is actually the item people want, just to sell on the market for big $$$$$'s

Mabinogi, Wizardry - Pay to revive, in Wizardry there was a risk of permadeath if you didn't, but the P2W item nerfed permadeath.

Mabinogi - Service required to sell anything on the market (people just created free accounts on a second pc to operate their "shop" instead), sell anything with a cart, sell anything with a house, operate the guild (not paying for service meant you lost the guild stone, and thus nobody can join,) expanded inventory, expanded bank slots, shared-items between bank slots, glamour outfits, and an exp bonus for the service.

Archeage - Patron (service), 20% bonus experience, labor recharges faster (used for crafting), required to own property, private server queue, reduced AH fees



The worst P2W items in FFXIV are the jump pots. Not the retainers as a whole. Because they operate as "rental" space, they share more in common with Mabinogi's insanely crippled inventory system, except in Mabinogi buying 80 characters, gives you 80 characters worth of inventory space, plus any storage bags, plus their expanded bank slots. So mabinogi's basic service is more cost effective than FFXIV's, since you only pay for the extra storage once, but are required to "rent" access to it. Where as FFXIV charges you to access each retainer over the initial 2, and there is no shared space. However pets also take up character slots in Mabinogi and they do not get bank space. So someone who wants to "maximize" their market presence would instead buy a bunch of cheap computers, and run their free characters to monopolize the market, which is exactly what the botters did in that game.

FFXIV:

Free Trial Players are not required to purchase licensed software to use the Free Trial.
One (1) Free Trial account may be registered using a Square Enix account so long as that Square Enix account has not been previously registered with any version of the game.
Free Trial Players cannot make in-game micro transactions during the Free Trial.
Free Trial Players can create only eight (8) playable characters, restricted to one (1) playable character per world.Free Trial Players cannot access the in-game market board during the Free Trial.
Free Trial Players cannot trade items with other players during the Free Trial.
Free Trial Players cannot use the Mogletter service during the Free Trial.
Free Trial Players cannot hire a retainer character during the Free Trial.
Free Trial Players cannot create or join a Free Company during the Free Trial.

So you can not abuse a "free" account in FFXIV like you would in Mabinogi. Those limits are precisely to prevent "free character" storage mules, market monopolization, and every RMT abuse possible. Yet, go look at how many 3BLM+1WHM's button mash characters in 1-day old FC's you can find. Clearly that's not stopping them.


If FFXIV went F2P, kiss goodbye any ability to ever sell anything for a fair price on the market ever again. People will not "rent" retainers, they will simply make hundreds of free ones.

[Alleo]

no p2w is about paying to win. this really only affects pvp games since heavy pve games can't really p2w players you got games like ff brave exvius or dissidia or even record keeper where people pay to pull more characters/gear but being better than another player almost doesn't affect you at all.

So if they release savage gear in the mog station that will make you better to win the new raid (but not necessary since there is other gear that you can theoretically use but that is worse) isnt that P2W too? I would also love to have a source to your definition of P2W. Because until now I never read that this was only about PVP.

No, pay to win is to have access to better items or same items, but faster.
If the "basic" hardcore raider needs 2 months to earn enough gil to buy the best items he needs to raid, that will only be released 4 months later, at the same time as the next raid like crafted items usually are, it doesn't matter if someone else earn the same gils one month earlier. And it also doesn't matter if that person earns more gils.
Even better. By being a crafter and gatherer, you actually don't need gils to obtain those best items you'll need to raid. And I'm pretty sure most hardcore CL will have crafters/gatheres in their own rank so that they don't rely on the market boards.

But the more gil you have the more people you can buy things for.

Lets say you have a couple of people in your raid FC that have all the retainers and make huge amounts of Gil. If the gear and its necessary mats are known with patch release they could simply buy all the items straight away and let them craft. This could give a bigger team of people the necessary means to raid nearly right after the patch went active.

Another example: You have two people with the exact amount of time to check on the marketboard and change prices. Now 1 months before the new patch Yoshidas tells us about a new limited housing zone with huge prices. The one with more retainers will make more Gil in that month thus has an advantage for that content. The same with new glamours, pets and mounts. If those are your goals you kinda "win" if you get them. You will win faster with more retainers if you simply can just buy them.

Edit: Daily limit Ftw..

my source is every p2w games i have played, ff14 is the only game i have ever played with standards for p2w so low.

But this is not another F2P game where you need P2W mechanics to finance your game. This is a sub MMO and should not even have a trace of that in it. As soon as you can buy any advantage with real money you are on slippery slopes. FF14 has two of them: Retainers (PVP MB and gil) and Jump potion (time advantage over those that dont pay). And thanks to the mog coins that may get more uses in the future this might expand. Its not as worse as some F2P out here but that doesnt mean that it isnt here.

And you did not answer my question about savage gear. If P2W is only PVP in your opinion wouldnt that make such savage gear sellings fine? Since that would be for PVE content.

[Musashidon]

So if they release savage gear in the mog station that will make you better to win the new raid (but not necessary since there is other gear that you can theoretically use but that is worse) isnt that P2W too? I would also love to have a source to your definition of P2W. Because until now I never read that this was only about PVP.

my source is every p2w games i have played, ff14 is the only game i have ever played with standards for p2w so low.

i mean the sources people use aren't even super heavy p2w making statements like exp boosts are p2w like whaatt?!


ff14 is the first p2p game i ever played before that (and still now) i played lots of f2p games some that were p2w other thats just had nice bonus's you could buy like exp pots ect.

i mean look at aria games, or nexon, R2? perfect world? fiesta? flyff?

Wizardry Online(NA) -

i am really surprised to see someone bring up this game, was pretty good til they decided it was ok for lvl 30's to spawn camp lvl 6's xD

course i will say why not bring up the thing that really made it p2w with the ability to pay to make your items unstealable?

wizardry was 95% about killing each other you could kill afk people in town as long as you avoided the gaurds/did it when they were bugging out.
the game really shined with how they made paying people much safer than none paying.