Stop with the pay to win advanages for retainers, suggestions on fixes

[Lilseph]

Oddly selective

You have optional items and additional services. The jump potions are considered items, not services. So Valkyrie is kinda right.

EDIT: Also, saying this isn't P2W doesn't mean people are white knights. Everyone here wants additional inventory space included with their monthly sub. NO ONE is defending SE, so please stop using that as an insult, you're just making yourself look like a clown.

They are just correcting the usage of that term, in a game that resolves around both PvP and PvE, nothing will give you the advantage for it. With 2 retainers you can already get a fortune and buy the crafted gear if needed. By playing the game you can get all the materia for pentamelding if needed. By running the content, you can get the glamour you want or the materials for them. Back to point 2: With the fortune you can make with 2 retainers alone, you can buy pretty much everything I've mentioned. Having the extra space won't magically make you rich instantly, you'll have to double your production to fill them up and get profit out of it.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Can we not reach to sensationalism? Pay to Win requires a win state. Considering gil is little more than a novelty achievement, this does not constitute Pay to Win. Is it scummy? Absolutely. Does it feel incredibly deceitful after their persistent whining about server limitations? Definitely. Do they deserve the overwhelming negative response? Yes. But is it Pay to Win? In my opinion, no.

So what is our solution? Don't purchase the premium feature. It's really that simple. Protest not only worth words on a forum but with your wallet. Our feedback certainly helps, but only if we're not paying into this trite. All throwing around Pay to Win accomplishes is giving them an out: "Oh, they're just exaggerating!" They cannot make that claim if barely anyone buys into a feature they spent ages working on.

[Ameela]

Pay to Win requires a win state. Considering gil is little more than a novelty achievement, this does not constitute Pay to Win.

Gil does allow you to buy gear, which is BiS for crafters and gatherer's and gives you a way to quickly gear up alt classes.
It's not pay to win but making it easier to obtain gil is hardly an insignificant advantage over other players.

[Vstarstruck]

I have to agree with the op here. SE keeps tacking on little things like a cash shop with services and cosmetics, a few paid retainers here, and now an app that gives you the ability to change the marketboard constantly by paying real life money for more kupo coins. Keep defending this and FFXIV will eventually reach the point that dungeons and dragons online got to where each individual dungeon and raid past a certain level required you to pony up cash just to unlock it. And also for some people crafting is their endgame and this is going to affect their gameplay when someone can just throw money at the screen to get stuff like more retainers and inventory space. For me personally I feel lied to by SE constantly saying that they couldn't add more space due to server limitations, but now it's become "pay us $5 a month for this app and your choco bags get doubled". What makes this even worse is that SE is blatantly funneling the proceeds into other projects almost like FFXIV is nothing more than a cash cow. I'll close with there used to be a time when subscription mmos only charged a subscription and at most a little extra for server changes or extra chars. What makes all this nickle and diming ok now?

p.s screw 1000 char post limits

Note this from another thread (and anyone else trying to claim this is not Ptw)

They broke their promise before the mog station was out.

According to the people in this thread http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ame-Time-Token and this thread http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-WOW-Tokens%29 getting more gil = pay to win.

8 additional retainers means you get far more selling slots than someone who doesn't, also means you get 4 times the amount of mats from 1hr ventures than someone with only 2 retainers. 10 retainers can generate millions of gil during the start of an expansion, so anyone with extra retainer has very well defined advantage against anyone else with 2.

The thing is I always viewed retainers pay to win, I just did not know enough to speak up or care back then. Also there was a point where i put 20x 8 on one chr and 20 x 4 on a second, back when I was deep in crafting. However because SE's refusal to truly address inventory space and the fact they are making crafting ptw well at first it was just pulling extra retainers, now i have 12 days left, around there before it will not let me post anymore.

Someone explained how they couldn't use a 3rd retainer for sales, and at one time I had enough different and unique items to cover 240 slots. At this point I was looking to the market more and the gil I earned. It dawned on me one person can fully control the MB if they simply felt like it or felt it was worth their time to do so. I personally observed only crafter duel box, and I believe I read here before someone was buying a 7th (total 9) retainer for 2 accounts (back when I was disliking what came out of the glam dresser since both where released at same time)

A duel boxer has the ability to watch up to 560-600 slots without needing to change character (depending how the app adds the 10th retainer it sits something in this range) meaning they have very quick access to change 560-600 items, while being able to list up to 3200 slots of items on duel box. This app will give insane amounts of power in a P2W aspect, and I am willing to bet someone will try to do so. Also note I am capable of doing this, I just do not want to, I am disabled and can play 24/7 if a chose. I simply find it wrong to exploit people to that degree. It is kinda like this:
https://youtu.be/cPEnRb6aaS4

Don't you think the best person to speak up on this issue is someone that has the capacity to do what is being claimed? it is so easy for one person to rule the mb, or someone with a train of bots like it was shown in a different thread. All this app does is give people like that way too much power. To make it worse you pay IRL money to have more power then others who simply pay for the base sub. I do not think it is right to give people this much power, and it is something I have used before (selling so much different stuff) while having the ability go further of simply buying out the MB completely and only having my stuff to sell at hiked prices. It is easy to do because how much the MB does not matter, so most people do not care as they do their tome gear and such, like people posted to me here as a counter. That very thing of making gil and the MB meaningless is why someone can have so much power over the MB if they chose to do so. This effect is more drastic when a new patch comes out. Since people play and quit in bursts, you can really get a good idea how much activity the game is having at any given time based on the MB.

Did anyone observe the effect Eureka have on the market? creation mats doubled, because you only got the limited tome there, it lasted for a week or 2. FFXIV's market is very volatile, and a small thing like the glam weekly or other things can change a 1k item into 100k+ item. The high volatility it has just makes it easier for one person to control.

Can we not reach to sensationalism? Pay to Win requires a win state..

With this point of view, what a win state is purely subjective. Someone can be first place in PvP in this game, but that person did not "win" in my eyes, due to PvP being badly designed and simply not care.

The problem I have with people debating here is there is most likely none that posted so far that is a crafter duelbox or even keeping up inventory on 180 slots of sales. You are not simply understanding that some people, crafting and gil making is their endgame, reaching 2 + gil cap retainers (2 Bil + gil)

Remember pay to win is defended by using IRL money for a significant advantage in a game, and when it comes to the market, FFXIV is P2W, and this app coming out should really show how much truth that statement holds.

[Avenger]

There seems to be some disagreement as to whether extra retainers are a pay to win aspect.

In my experience, more retainers means more ventures which means more items for cheap and more gil.

More MB slots means higher sales per day which also means more gil.

If you are a crafter this is a major advantage as it saves you time and gil.

If you are not a crafter but play the market board, it is also a major advantage (as is having more inventory slots.)

If you don’t craft or play the MB, then it is a smaller advantage - a small but steady stream of extra gil, and a higher chance to get some items such as minions.

So yeah it is definitely a paid advantage that helps crafters quite a bit but is still useful for non-crafters. It boils down to paying a premium in real money in order to save time and gil in the game.

[XenoCranel]

More MB slots means higher sales per day which also means more gil.

If you are a crafter this is a major advantage as it saves you time and money.

I could say the same for botters.

[Musashidon]

eh the game has and will always be pay2win i mean you can't even log in without paying so i have an advantage over anyone who doesn't anyways.

[Avenger]

I should also note that retainers also bring rare dyes which are expensive on the MB but couid be needed for the fashion report.

[XenoCranel]

eh the game has and will always be pay2win i mean you can't even log in without paying so i have an advantage over anyone who doesn't anyways.

Good point. I was going to add to this. The whole concept of Pay 2 Win starts with paying for something. Win is a very broad term and can mean different things to each individual such as enjoyment. #Mindblown

I like you.

[Avenger]

eh the game has and will always be pay2win i mean you can't even log in without paying so i have an advantage over anyone who doesn't anyways.

I think the level cap (35?) of the free trial should be considered pay to progress rather than pay to win.