Stop with the pay to win advanages for retainers, suggestions on fixes

[DPZ2]

"Some people's main gameplay is to craft and earn gil, so you are wrong there, also what about that thread where word first clear had alt bot gathering FC to gather and craft to help the first world clear (potions)? "

Crafting is part of gameplay. The Market Board is a part of gameplay. Glamour is a part of gameplay.

Meta-games build on gameplay features, but no one is required to play them in order to have a great time playing the game. They enrich the game. They were not part of the original game design.

Still, the meta-games of "Craft King" and "Make lots of gil" do not require more than 2 retainers. Simply saying "you are wrong there" isn't a point of argument, it is dismissal.

As for the second half of that long sentence, RMT and bot activities can get you kicked permanently from the game, so I don't have the faintest idea why you were actually going with this as part of your argument.

[swiss_Momo]

[AxlStream]

I mean I don't even use the 2 retainers we have already for free. Just stop being a hoarder...

[Dustytome]

When you look at it from a killing monsters standpoint it's not pay to win, there's more ways to play the game than just that though. From someone who's more interested in the market aspect, you're at much more of an advantage with more than two retainers between addition venture opportunities giving additional chances at rare items (minions, glamour, furniture, etc), the sweet sweet storage space and 20 additional slots per retainer to sell items. It's to the people that play for the market aspect as selling additional weekly loot unlocks would be to a raider. People can still catch up, but you've got a clear advantage.

That said it's not going away, but I think they really need to simmer down on these extra fees, maybe look into doing a retainer bundle or change to a reasonable one time retainer fee.

[Mikki]

A lot of you are really against calling this pay to win and I can see why... but I definitely think we should agree that this is certainly "pay to get an advantage".

Being able to sell more items gives you more gil which in turn allows you to buy more things. Sure, mostly glamour. But lets be real... who hasn't heard the saying that "the real end game is glamour"? In any case, glamour is something that gives many people great joy. Now... lets imagine a scenario.

You have crafter A (Alex) and crafter B (Brian). Both of these crafters have worked very hard to level up their crafters all to max rank, as well as gatherers. However, Brian pays for max retainers and for the sake of example, lets say Brian has a LOT of money and also pays enough money to be able to change his MB listings through the app literally whenever he wants. I could go into a scenario where Brian just undercuts endlessly and bulk lists, completely pushing Alex out of the picture... but honestly that doesn't matter. The main point is this: even if Alex works just as hard as Brian, it will take Alex more than double the time to make the same amount of gil as Brian, assuming they are able to make the same products and put in equal effort.

In the end, Alex and Brian can both reach the same place but at different times. However, what if you could simply purchase raid tier gear? Lets say.... they allowed you to purchase it on the mogstation a month after the raid has been out, giving enough time for people to get their world firsts. Everyone would outcry, "But that's not fair. You have to work HARD to get that gear. It should be a status symbol." To you I say... Oh? Is that so? And crafting doesn't take hard work and dedication, huh? OR "Oh but it gives an advantage because better gear lets you clear harder content" and to that I say, "You can also buy gear to clear harder content". I don't like how people underplay the dedication it takes to be a crafter - you can't lie.... maxing your crafters and gatherers is a PAIN. That's why so many people don't do it. And worse, because this game lacks a gil sink people say that gil is worthless. That may be true, but you know something? Maybe... just maybe there are people who pride themselves in having enough gil that they're able to purchase those new minions as soon as they're released. (This is RNG so you can't really rely on your own retainer to get that for you - but you know if you have like ...idk, max retainers you can get it much quicker can't you?) Maybe there are people who are proud to be able to have glamour items relatively quickly. Which, yeah... again, you can make it yourself but sometimes it's difficult to get all the mats and that's where having more gil comes in. Maybe some people just pride themselves in having a lot of gil?

I think it's ridiculous that some people think that they can downplay what other people enjoy about the game and dictate what matters and what doesn't. You don't get to decide that. To you maybe gil and fashion items mean little but to someone else maybe it means a lot. Tell me why someone who has more money should be able to get these items faster than someone who doesn't? I can accept having mogstation glamours but there should be no reason why someone should have an advantage to get non-mogstation items. Honestly, minions are probably the best example of it. Why is it that someone who pays a bunch of money for extra retainers can have a much higher chance to get one before someone who doesn't ever does?

Not to mention how much money you need to spend to pentameld your gear. Uh. HELLO??? And don't tell me pentamelding your gear doesn't give an advantage. And I know people who easily spend millions attempting to do it.

Just my two gil. Keep in mind that just because you can achieve the same end without paying doesn't mean it's okay. Being able to do it faster by paying is unfair in a game where people pride themselves on being the first to do or have something. And you can say that it doesn't matter and those people have misguided values but at the end of the day, you don't get to determine what others value.

[Dzian]

Just stop. Seriously.

It isn’t pay to win, you know it isn’t and creating threads like this fans the flames and plants seeds in people’s consciousness that this is pay to win, which I repeat, it is not.

By creating threads like this you’re just trolling basically. Sorry but I’m just calling it as it is. I can’t help it and I know the majority of people will feel the same.

Yes it is. Pay to win by its very definition is ANYTHING a player can buy that gives them ANY advantage in game over a player that does not pay no matter how big or small that advantage may be. Hence the person who linked the wiki thing above.

So yes even an extra retainer is technically speaking pay to win. As it gives advantages over players with just the standard 2..

You get more storage space...
You get more slots to sell things on the market board which gives you a bigger presence and potentially bigger income.
And can even gain an advantage with gathering more items for example with an extra DoL retainer.

These things may be small but they are advantages none the less. And advantages that must be paid for... thus they are by very definition PAY-2-WIN.

[LeoLupinos]

OMG, the SE White Knights arrived.

The game is BECOMING pay to win, BECOMING. Do I need to draw? It's not Completely pay to win, but there are elements of it already. My friend does have full retainer, he bought lvl 60 potion for their retainer e is generating a lot of gil from them, and at the start of the expansion he was with Ilvl max from craft gear while I need to farm through the Hunt, Creation and mendacity and bla bla bla. He owns a large house, a lot of things he become so much early on than me because of money. Himself say's that he could not become what he is only with the sub.

So to all the White Knights, Stop YOU to defend this kind of thing. All the Leveling potions for job, retainer, squadrom, that's a very unfair thing. I spend toons of time to level up these and the one paying get it to max in the same minute? ffs.
I've come to this Sub Based MMO to not bother with Cash Shop, and by the time I arrived this Cash Shop was little, now it is growing without a doubt.
Sub based means everyone is equal, I'm not seeing this anymore in the future. I'm just being haunted by "the future will be worse, look foward to it".

[akaneakki]

Yah because saying having more inventory space is NOT pay to win, makes you a Se white knight. I'm going to ask you how you end up winning in pve and pvp by having more inventory space then. explain please.

[Squintina]

A lot of people who don't see it as pay to win are because they forget that there is no official "win" in mmorpgs, so anyone that players want to count as a win is one.

I mean think about it: What exactly is "win"?

In offline game (like traditional FF) it was clearly defined as getting to the end credits (which is why the toughest bosses in ff9 or 12 are always in "sidequest" sections of walkthroughs, because they are not required to be done to get to the end credits). In mmos, players typically pick their own "win". And when people downplay crafting and/or glamouring as side content, what they are really saying is "that's not part of my win".

But what if I did that to you? Applied my own version of what counts as win and then allowed everything that didn't fall into that to be nickel and dimed.
I can guarantee you wouldn't like that since my definition of "win" is getting to the end credits, and the only thing required for that is 1 battle job and doing MSQ.

So if i were a self-centered person like all those people who downplay MB "winners", then all of the following could be nickle and dimed:
- taking on other jobs
- ALL MB activity
- ALL retainers
- raids? pfft, none of them matter for MSQ. pay a DLC for all them.
- same with ultimate
- all dungeons/trials not required as part of MSQ, and Extreme versions of MSQ trials.

You'd hate that right? Well that's how crafters feel when they see that now people will be able to do transactions remotely and undercut them by paying fees - like if they don't do it, they're left out.

This would all be fine in a f2p where everything is purchased separately, but in a sub game, unless SE tells us "this is what officially counts as win-content and everything else is monetizable", there's no reason for it.

Also, this could in theory be used for p2w too. Often? probably not. But the following scenario is possible:

-Raider A zomgraids comes back just before a patch to prepare for new extreme/ultimate/savage content
-Raider A wants to compete for world first (which is also optional and not even in the game) and knows he'll need to buy crafted gear on day 1 and that it'll be expensive
-Raider A doesn't have the gil for it
-Raider A spends this prep time farming things and listing on MB
-Raider A checks MB all throughout day at work/school, undercutting whenever necessary, pays real money to be able to keep up
-Patch day, raider A now has lots of gil to buy that crafted gear to then compete for world first

Compared to Raider B, who has the same goals, but isn't willing/able to pay a sub (plus buying the game + expansions) on a mobile app to be able to keep up their MB-ing during work/school and because of it gains gil slower and may not make enough in time to compete.

It was one thing when people with more free time could do more. But a person willing to spend money now able to do more in their non-free time to be able to compete in the game. Well..that's very p2w.

Before someone says "they wouldn't do that".
1. I said "possible", not necessarily likely, but this is an easy enough scenario to follow
2. You're right, they probably wouldn't, mostly because such come-back-only-for-new-content-without-enough-gil-but-still-want-world-first people are just going to use actual RMT to fund their bought crafted gear.

[Etisha]

As someone who can afford to pay an extra $5 a month for an app for my only time-sink, a way to tend to my game on my break at work or while I'm out and about or even in bed, I'm nothing but excited for this, unless these coins end up being insanely expensive. But, I'm the sucker who makes cash shops a viable source of income for MMO companies. Oops.