Request: Please give us alternate ways to obtain PVP armour and weapons

[Awha]

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I know my English is bad, but I did state that your sentiment is not wrong, and that I was in the wrong to equate that rarity solely as a factor that influences the value in a social context, rarity can be considered an aspect that determines personal value, but that is still a choice we the owner has to make to. We made the same mistake value is subjective but we personally have viewed our own value system as the only path. I even mentioned that if SE were to change their value proposition regarding top 100 rewards you have a right to feel slighted and displeased with the choice. What I am trying to get at is why is your view the only path SE can take? That is why people have made the request for the system to be changed. SE is free to change their value proposition, maybe one day they will see that the demand for the feast rewards is high enough to warrant some changes to the system.

You say one cannot make the claim that the only the owner can judge the value of something, but that is the case since if that was not the case everyone would be in agreement at the moment. I get that the reward in question were advertised as only being for those with top 100, so if that aspect gets taken away it is an objective fact that it looses the value marker of being once for top 100. Thing is that can change at anytime, SE can come around and state they are going to mail every player all the rank rewards simply for being subbed for 90 days. My position is if that were to happen should one really view the reward they earned as any less impressive or valuable. To me personally no, but for someone yeah I can see why they would, and the end it is still a choice since if that were to happen to me I have the choice to let the changed value proposition on SE part in this case removing the top 100 value marker detract from the value or the reward I earned or ignore it. I personally would choose to ignore it, others rightfully so would not be able to do so.

Like right now those that wish to have the old PvP rewards obtainable, have choices accept the current status quo, or request a change to be made. Everything around this topic comes down to a choice. When it boils down to it you said you feel as if "people who don't put the same effort into getting a reward should be entitled to the reward, period, and that isn't a wrong sentiment to have." I feel that exclusive rewards are pointless and a waste of man hours and resources and should be made obtainable by as many people through branching paths. I think timed exclusives are fine, since in my view effort is subjective who are we say farming 200 feast matches does not equate to the same effort needed to hit top 100. Why is your position the only one that is right because to a degree that is how things work outside the video game?

I hope that makes sense, I am not saying that you are wrong, if you choose to use the top 100 marker as a means determine the personal value of something then yeah you are right any change will detract from that. Now I am not saying the collective value in a social context is not objective. Social value to a degree is objective, I mean you can choose to ignore it but that does not change the fact that if the collective views a dollar as worth 100 pennies no matter what you say or try to ignore it that dollar will not be worth 1 million pennies. On a personal level though yeah that dollar can be valued at whatever you want it to be valued at. It is an extreme example but who are we to refute how a person personally values a dollar, if they are not trying to impose that view on others why does it matter.

At the core personal value is subjective, collective value or worth of something is objective but it is still our choice to allow outside influences determine the personal value of something. I mean if someone does not care about the top 100 in pvp aren't you asking them to pretend to care about that value marker when it comes to why an item should not remain exclusive. If we have to pretend that the top 100 means something why is it wrong for us to ask you to pretend that it means something. I mean those not in favor of the current system cannot project our views on others since that is wrong, and I am guilty of doing that. Yet those that are telling us that the objectively top 100 should mean something and we should strive for it if we want the reward is not projecting that view on those that disagree? Since for some top 100 may be hold no value.

Rambled on again sorry, short version personal value is subjective, however the markers one uses to determine personal value can have an objective impact if changes are made. That is much is a 100% true, but the choice is still with the individual to allow those changes impact the personal value of the item. Each side has a view point, we can be in disagreement but end of the day neither side is right or wrong, and to a degree we are all pretending that the little things we earn in this video hold any objective value, it is all subjective.

[Stormfur]

Aviars, I agree that the top 100 should be able to choose their reward with a voucher. I think that is quite literally the only thing we agree on.

Because I'd also like either the same reward available in time, tied to a related pvp achievement as the minions were -OR-
A similar version, perhaps with different colors or effects, available with collars.

Really, I think the latter would be most acceptable to everyone, both top 100 and not.

Still, all we have to go on is past changes, so you cannot fault players for looking said changes to try and draw some kind of conclusion, since the Devs don't tell us what's being done in pvp until after it is put into place.

That being said. Mog suit? Fan fest exclusive, put into mog station later.
People didn't even want to pvp for the garo gear so a version of it got put in the gold saucer.
Chinese and Korean exclusive items? Up on mog station.
And lots of people across every region have asked for some form of pvp rewards to be made available beyond pvp.
Hell, even after something like four years, guys are finally getting their bunny suits.

At the end of the day, it's SE's call, but I'm detecting a pattern here....

[Awha]

At the end of the day, it's SE's call, but I'm detecting a pattern here....

I do think you are right if enough people bring up interest in the PvP rewards they will make changes to the system either toss them on the mog station, make them obtainable through pvp centric achievements be feast, front lines or both, or moving forward make two version one armored for the top 100 and one bare bones for everyone to earn simply through participation.

Maybe during a future Live Letter they will tackle the topic of exclusive rewards.

[Aviars]

Aviars, I agree that the top 100 should be able to choose their reward with a voucher. I think that is quite literally the only thing we agree on.

Because I'd also like either the same reward available in time, tied to a related pvp achievement as the minions were -OR-
A similar version, perhaps with different colors or effects, available with collars.

Really, I think the latter would be most acceptable to everyone, both top 100 and not.

Still, all we have to go on is past changes, so you cannot fault players for looking said changes to try and draw some kind of conclusion, since the Devs don't tell us what's being done in pvp until after it is put into place.

That being said. Mog suit? Fan fest exclusive, put into mog station later.
People didn't even want to pvp for the garo gear so a version of it got put in the gold saucer.
Chinese and Korean exclusive items? Up on mog station.
And lots of people across every region have asked for some form of pvp rewards to be made available beyond pvp.
Hell, even after something like four years, guys are finally getting their bunny suits.

At the end of the day, it's SE's call, but I'm detecting a pattern here....

Stormfur you say you agree but you automatically begin to say you don't. So there really isn't anything more to be said, it's quite clear you want to be able to achieve the same rewards for relatively no work in comparison to top 100, so at this point I just have to accept you are overly entitled to everything you want because you don't want to put forth the same effort and skill as others.

Despite what you say, not everyone agrees with you wanting to make a top 100 reward a grinding achievement . Stop trying to say such things to create an illusion of a consensus that everyone wants everything to be free.

Also I quite enjoy how you are basically arguing for Square Enix to go back on their promises. Very strange for people to actually expect promises to be broken. I can also list items that are still exclusive such as 1.0 perks. Others have listed many more as well which proves SE does keep items exclusive despite the whiners demands. I find it rather disturbing you don't want people to keep their promises and actually prefer that to happen..... very strange

Also SE seems to not want to back down to the whiners on this topic. I sure hope they don't just to prove SE can keep a promise. Promises are expected to be kept.

[Awha]

Despite what you say, not everyone agrees with you wanting to make a top 100 reward a grinding achievement . Stop trying to say such things to create an illusion of a consensus that everyone wants everything to be free.

Clearly not everyone wants to keep the rewards gated behind top 100 in the feast. So what are we trying to get at here, that people have differing views on the topic at hand. That is true. Why is it your claims are right but anyone who disagrees with you is wrong or whinny? At the end of it all people are making a simple request if you have faith in SE to keep their so called promise then you should not be so defensive about the request that is being made because if they stick to their guns nothing will come of it.

A company is within their right to change their value proposition, that is why requests are made since change can happen, nothing is set in stone and to a company a promise is not forever. Wasn't the Moogle Attire marketed as an exclusive item that came with the purchase of a fan fest ticket, yet that ended up on the Mog Station. That is an example of SE changing their value proposition, so it is possible they will change their mind on this topic if enough people show interest in the item.

Also the 1.0 items are from a different game, while personally I would not care if the 1.0 awards were added to the current game but I do not think the are a 1:1 comparison when it comes to rewards from content in the current version of the game.

[Stormfur]

If anyone deserves to have a "promise kept", it would be those people who paid $1,000+ to go to Fan Fest only to see their exclusive reward be put in the Mog Station later.

But I truly and sincerely doubt that anyone who went there 1) did so only for the reward 2) cares that many more people now have the item.

It doesn't diminish your progress or your victory in any way if more people eventually have access to the same thing. The whole game is purposefully done this way.

I actually went back to the original announcement, and it no longer says anything about them being exclusive. I didn't have a lot of time to do this, but there you go:


https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/pr/blog/001673.html
https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/pr/blog/001954.html

Here is the post back from Season 1. They make it clear about the trophy being exclusive, not the armor set:
https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/pr/blog/001447.html

Even the armor from the last couple of seasons says "can't be obtained anywhere else [other than PVP]"
https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/pr/blog/002114.html

Not "can't be obtained in any other way" or "can't be obtained by anyone else."

Maybe they talk about it being exclusive somewhere else. Like I said, I don't have much time to look.

Also Aviars, it's okay to "agree to disagree" without calling the other person wrong. That's just what we'll have to do in this case.

[Aviars]

If anyone deserves to have a "promise kept", it would be those people who paid $1,000+ to go to Fan Fest only to see their exclusive reward be put in the Mog Station later.

The fact you are still pushing for SE to break their promises on rewards just shows the level of desperation you have for the mount. I mean it's to the point where you are actively promoting immorality/lying. Very disturbing

But I truly and sincerely doubt that anyone who went there 1) did so only for the reward 2) cares that many more people now have the item.

Not only do you have no proof of that but it's irrelevant.

It doesn't diminish your progress or your victory in any way if more people eventually have access to the same thing. The whole game is purposefully done this way.

Not true, otherwise other items currently exclusive since the beginning wouldn't still be exclusive. Stop spreading lies please.

I actually went back to the original announcement, and it no longer says anything about them being exclusive. I didn't have a lot of time to do this, but there you go:

"I didn't have a lot of time, but I did have a lot of time to desperately try and cherry pick and ignore other statements in the same blog post"

https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/pr/blog/001673.html
https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/pr/blog/001954.html

First off, the context is clear that these rewards were for the seasons top ranked players. They even say in the blog post in is for RANKING players. Not some randoms that want it because they asked nicely. First example of you selectively ignoring parts of the blog post that contradict your ignorant worldview.

Here is the post back from Season 1. They make it clear about the trophy being exclusive, not the armor set:
https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/pr/blog/001447.html

You know what's really funny. After they say that the trophy is for only 1 person right afterwards they that the armor is for the "top ranks" as in, exclusive for top ranks. Again you are selectively ignoring parts of the blog posts in order to spread lies. I just have no words.

Even the armor from the last couple of seasons says "can't be obtained anywhere else [other than PVP]"
https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/pr/blog/002114.html

Not "can't be obtained in any other way" or "can't be obtained by anyone else."

You are so eye wateringly disingenuous that it's just amazing how you can say this with a straight face. You know what they say right before that? That it's a reward for the top 100. And right after that they say it can't be obtained anywhere else. Obviously saying you can't obtain it anywhere else other than placing top 100. You are grasping straws so hard right now it is just amazing how you can just straight up nitpick comments, out of context, from blogs to try and further your agenda.

Maybe they talk about it being exclusive somewhere else. Like I said, I don't have much time to look.

In the blog posts you linked they do talk about it, you just willingly ignored it.

Also Aviars, it's okay to "agree to disagree" without calling the other person wrong. That's just what we'll have to do in this case.

At this point with this debate on promises there is no "agree or disagree". You think promises shouldn't be kept in in situations regarding rewards in this game, that is wrong. And then you try to say there was no promise made despite your own evidence clearly stating otherwise because you OBVIOUSLY cherry picked comments out of context in the most blatant way possible. When you have to outwardly make up lies man you need to take a look at yourself for a moment and ask yourself if what you are doing is just straight up immoral.

[Mantrus]

I thought the subject I discussed was closed in agreement and I could stop wasting my time here, but apparently not.

First off, stop mentioning subjective value is a choice. It can be a subconscious decision based on upbringing, life values, and living situation so no it's not necessarily a choice. You might as well be arguing that being gay is a choice. And even if valuations were a choice, saying what people "should" or "could" be choosing is 1) a waste of time because hypotheticals are just that and 2) just your opinion as another hypothetical choice so this sort of reasoning is just recursive and again a waste of time.

It's just a long winded way of saying "we all have different opinions that we are allowed to feel" which we already agreed to several times; at this point, using this argument is either trying to invalidate an opinion with an opinion or wasting more time. The fact you keep bringing it up means without question you are just wasting my time intentional or not, and the fact you use this argument in debate with a passage of Ava's opinion means with pretty reasonable evidence that you are trying to invalidate an opinion with an opinion. This is not only stupid but also insulting, because using only this reasoning implies you think your opinion matters enough to counter his opinion without any follow up reasoning. At least when Ava is condescending he mentions why.

If you're not trying to invalidate his argument, then you are wasting my time to a third degree, first as previously stated for arguing with a point that boils down to "we have different opinions", two for using an argument already hashed into the ground, and three for saying words that argue no point and will get nowhere.

[Mantrus]

Yes, SE at any time can choose to change their values to favor different opinions. But even if they do change their values, that doesn't change the fact that the current reward holders are losing value from it; maybe SE doesn't care or has a bigger priority to gain, but that doesn't just write off our loss as nonexistent.

But since we can't know what SE wants, we are really debating 2 things:

1) What are the objective changes that result from SE changing the reward structure? This is the core of the value lost from exclusivity vs value gained by those who have access to the armor argument.

2) What decision best aligns with SE's values? This involves extrapolation of values based on precedent and arguing how a decision would best fit SE's perceived or beneficial values.

Sure, no matter how thoroughly we debate these points, we won't invalidate another's argument. But through these points, we can show that one side is more reasonable than another. So no matter how much one believes or wants something, their opinion is shown to be less logical.

[Awha]

Snip . . .

I am not tying to invalidate anyone argument, that is what he is trying to do. I am simply pointing out that this debate will go no where since neither side can claim that they are objective correct, and cannot prove that having exclusive is for the benefit of the game mode itself. I have stated countless times Ava is within their right to feel how they do and request that no change be made to the system, just as those who are in disagreement with how the system are free to make requests in hopes of changing the system. It keeps getting brought up since Ava feels as if their view is the only right path, and is any request to make a change to the system because currently SE seems to be in favor of the current system is moot and frivolous. As I said before in the context of in-game rewards each side has a view point, we can be in disagreement but end of the day neither side is right or wrong, and to a degree we are all pretending that the little things we earn in this video hold any objective value, it is all subjective.

I was trying to show how Ava is trying to invalidate our opinions with opinions, why are you not getting on their case about invalidating the opinions of others with their own opinions. I do think they are they one that likes to make the claim that others are objectively wrong because they do not follow the same set of values as him. I also did mention that yes if a change were to happen current holders would lose value, but does that point alone make it so we are unable to make a request for a change to be made because it goes against the current status quo? Neither side has enough information to make a claim on behalf of SE, from my perspective they tie rewards to increase participation, if that is the case maybe they should make different tiers of rewards one for those that hit top 100 and one for everyone else. Same base concept behind mount, but the top 100 version can be different in some shape or form. I would like to discus other ideas, but how can we do so when people like Ava come out stating that anyone who disagrees with them is wrong, and uses the status quo as a reason to keep things the same since any change would detract from the perceived value on the rewards and accomplishment.

As I mentioned before yes those in favor of the current system can use SE past behavior as precedent to defend their position, but that precedent itself does not inherently undermine or make our request moot in this context since we also have precedent showing that if enough people desire something SE sometimes changes their mind. So why shoot down our request, not saying to you should lay down and accept the change, but what gives anyone the right to make the claim that our position is wrong, or in storm's case claim he is immoral because SE has shown how they change their minds. A promise from a company is never set in stone, and can always change. That change is what those that wish for the reward system to change are banking on.

Using SE's current set of values yes our request is less logical but, SE has and can change those values so while the request may seem less reasonable in the current context, who is to say that they will not change their mind if enough people show a desire for a change. In the end we are in agreement that SE can change their values so why should we sit down a accept the current system without even making a request for a change to happen simply because following the current set of values shown by SE our request is not reasonable.