Should FF14 take a new route? Discussion

[KaivaC]

I am not sure why some of the posters seem to think that my thoughts came because of Eureka. Eureka was one aspect, yes, but if you've seen previous posts by me, I'm not simply just talking about Eureka. I'm talking about the overall product. I grinding my way through ARR and HW...only to pretty much see the same thing in SB. Granted when I was going through all of that, I was more concerned with enjoying the story and making sure that I didn't fall behind - but now that I'm caught up with other players...nothing's really changed as far as open world content, dungeons, Diadem 1/2/3, and even fights go. Some features may be added here and there, however, it feels like SE is implementing things that THEY think we would enjoy, rather than actually communicating with us and polling to see what we want.

Blitzball, something that was mentioned last year, is a feature that I am highly interested in. But we've heard nothing about it. As was mentioned way earlier, the current raids feel like disjointed pieces of story, compared to the Binding Coils. A new direction does not equate changing the whole game - just try something that truly is different and not just a repackaged instance would be a nice start. If it fails, fine. But at least show that you're willing to do something that feels like you're trying to retain your current player base for the long run, instead of giving us something that will likely die off entirely by the time the next expansion rolls around.

[ko_]

I mean while I do understand what you're saying, but can't it be said that they did try things that were completely different? Lords of V sticks to mind as something that was different and it failed, same thing with chocogo racing. Those are two things in my mind that aren't - go kill a thing- but both failed pretty bad.. same with the card game. Sadly the thing that sells content and works is the standard that has ben here since day one. Looking at it from SE point of view.. why keep trying different systems that fail? That's a huge waste of money and time that could be spent doing things that produce known and flat out results. ala go here and kill the boss/raid/dungeon/mob etc. All I can see them doing to change that up is changing the dance which they have been doing to a point. I might be missing context but from what I've seen already i nthe game totally different content doesn't produce results no matter how bored a bit of the player base is.

[Vstarstruck]

FFXIV is 4 years old with most players being at level cap, but has two major issues:

• Equipment stats are too basic. It all boils down to 2 iLv identical pieces per endgame tier and all you need to do is choose the one with the sub stats you like more.
  I'm not counting crafted gear as its rarely a viable choice.
• Endgame content boils down to just 4 Savage floors, 1 extreme primal, 1 24man raid, 4 normal raid floors.
  Raid and normal raid ilv is always too low but it serves as a gateway to endgame and provides 1 weekly upgrade items for tome gear.

Expert dungeons, older expert primals, maps, hunts, fates, leves, hests etc are in fact content but not endgame content in any way other than that some help you get tomes and upgrade tome gear.

In other words, we need more meaningful loot, and more ways to obtain it.

I am confused whu "crafted" does not count, it is even the same ilevel as "relics" and can be overmelded.
Your post is a bit in the deep end. No where at any time Applejinx suggested they wanted something perfect.

Every time someone drops "decent coding" or "poorly optimized" in a comment or discussion about a game, is revealing of how little they actually know about coding.

There is not some "make game suck less" tick box. There is not a "bugs=0" line.

The difference between North America and Japan/Korea is that zero-latency programming can not be done. The only way to get the M for Massive in a MMO in North America is either by having shards that serve the surrounding 500km area, and can not talk to each other, or by having worlds that can talk to each other (which appears to be exclusive to FFXIV) but trading off command latency (eg no "action RPG" elements are possible.) The entire reason we can avoid AOE's at all is because there is a long window. No single player game would ever be this forgiving.

A game with better netcode would have to be written with the intent of being a MMO, from both the client and server, and that is just not the current development model. The current development model is to retro-fit single-player game engines like Unreal, CryEngine, Unity and so forth, and make every "level" or "zone" maps as small as possible (really run any of the 2.0 dungeons unsynced, solo and notice that all of them except for the V1.0 holdovers are actually very small. The V1.0 hold overs are actually larger, but they cut off some parts to make them less of a maze.) Those engines I mentioned above all share the same issues that FFXIV doesn't have when they're used as MMO's. FFXIV actually works out pretty well considering I've never seen any crashes or GPU-related garbage that these other engines have when running for long periods of time.

A game that is "better optimized" means cutting everything in half. Textures are cut in half, model sizes go back to 2004-era sizes. Like every time Square puts out a PC game, "it needs better optimization" comes up, and some good-natured modder basically disables everything that makes the PC version superior to the PS3/PS4 version.

To be fair, not every game published by SE is done in-house, and some of these third parties (like the mobile/android/ios ports of FF6/Chrono Trigger) appear not care about the finished product, creating a "SquareEnix PC ports are buggy and sloppy" reputation that may hurt PC game sales in much the same way that we all avoid licensed titles by EA due to Electronic Art's obsession with microtransactions and general IP raiding of studios they acquire and then shut down. Some people don't care and will take any dogfood they are fed.

Which is to circle back to the topic, a new MMO will not be "better" at anything. FFXIV is already using the best available technology that is also used in FFXV. Unless you want the requirements for an Action MMO to be "move to NYC, LA or Tokyo", one is not going to happen. The current allowance for lag in internet mmo games, is also what allows cheating to be prolific because the closer the cheater is to the data center, the larger advantage they will have over players that aren't local.

FFXI, does not have these coding problems, there is less lag with response then there is with ffxiv, and ffxi is only in japan. You are not still damaging stuff in wow or ffxi that is dead, ffxiv is the frst time I seen that lets you keep damaing things for about two seconds or so after it died. There is a difference with someone asking for a game to be more playable vs someone asking for everything to be perfect. I never heard of "server tics" before till this game, and it still hurts BLM' DPS. Why should a job be weaker then it should be because of bad netcode?

This also means stop with the AAR=HW=SB
same 3- 24 man raids, same progression, sae get a good weapon though trial, same menu mazes with upgrading weapons, same 450 tomestones a week limit, same limit of 1 drop per week from the current 24 man, same limits for each time savage is current.

The only thing we got that was really different is palace of the dead, and diadem, but unlike the diadem trio, palace of the dead finds means to still be successful and used

I mean while I do understand what you're saying, but can't it be said that they did try things that were completely different? Lords of V sticks to mind as something that was different and it failed, same thing with chocogo racing. Those are two things in my mind that aren't - go kill a thing- but both failed pretty bad.. same with the card game. Sadly the thing that sells content and works is the standard that has ben here since day one. Looking at it from SE point of view.. why keep trying different systems that fail? That's a huge waste of money and time that could be spent doing things that produce known and flat out results. ala go here and kill the boss/raid/dungeon/mob etc. All I can see them doing to change that up is changing the dance which they have been doing to a point. I might be missing context but from what I've seen already i nthe game totally different content doesn't produce results no matter how bored a bit of the player base is.

I have an issue with "kill a thing = people think it is the same" you keep stating. it is false and no one thinks that. It is the overall feel and what you do overall to finish something. In such light Eureka = diadem, fate trains, all it is. Chocobo racing and lords simply did not capture interest and racing has insane inconsistent input delays.

For other concepts, it is something I explained to you already, as for why in specific, I gave you a quote by yoshi -p that I will restate here:

Yoshida: It is the second expansion pack, and if we were to do the same thing all over again, a lot of people would get tired of it.

Even he is self aware in knowing people will get tired of it. If we keep going on the route of reskining content, some point in the future it is gonna snap and have a massive exodus. Everyone has a breaking point and yoshi-p knows the general mass of the player population is getting close to that point.

[ko_]

I say that cause people keep saying " I want something different" But breaking it all down it's still killing stuff. 90% of what you're doing is doing the same rotation on whatever bos you're fighting. That never changes. Thats why I bring it up.. I mean it's the same as you saying Euerka - Diadem really. Just cause they both have fates. Well if thats true then my statement is also true.. cause in both of those all you're doing is killing stuff. I bring it up cause Lords of V and racing are things that went away from that - kill a thing- and both have failed. So it's why I keep asking will changing the goal do anything really? The few times it has been changed that content for whatever purposes has failed. The only content that really grows and gives results is the standard. Yes we have crafting but thats like the only thing I can think of that doesn't fail next to battle content. I mean it's fine to want something different but what SE is posed to do when the only content to produce results is battle content?

I really hate the 1000 word limit so much. so so very much.

[Vstarstruck]

I say that cause people keep saying " I want something different" But breaking it all down it's still killing stuff. 90% of what you're doing is doing the same rotation on whatever bos you're fighting. That never changes. Thats why I bring it up.. I mean it's the same as you saying Euerka - Diadem really. Just cause they both have fates. Well if thats true then my statement is also true.. cause in both of those all you're doing is killing stuff. I bring it up cause Lords of V and racing are things that went away from that - kill a thing- and both have failed. So it's why I keep asking will changing the goal do anything really? The few times it has been changed that content for whatever purposes has failed. The only content that really grows and gives results is the standard. Yes we have crafting but thats like the only thing I can think of that doesn't fail next to battle content. I mean it's fine to want something different but what SE is posed to do when the only content to produce results is battle content?

I really hate the 1000 word limit so much. so so very much.

*puts hands on her face*
Ill say this one more time, as this is the 3rd or 4th attempt in total trying to explain this to you. It is not based on the idea "killing stuff 90% of the time" People are not saying they want something different just because "they are killing 90% of the time" This is not the reason why diadem got so much backlash.

What people are talking about is the general big picture of things and HOW you kill that something. FFXI for example had little issue with "releasing new things" the complaint that popped up more often then not is x is too hard, getting access to sea esp. There was tons of things to do in FFXI and to my knowledge no one complained it was getting monotonous of doing things over and over again (like the complaint for diadem 3.0) because it was presented differently. Abyssea, sky, sea, HNM, VNM, ENM, nyzul isle, Assault, Limbus, Dynamis, KSNM , BCNM, einherjar, and more that I may be missing, each of these required different approaches and very few got board going one to the other. The biggest problem in FFXI (if somehow the list I gave didn't make it obvious) was what to do. You couldn't do everything. Then to top it off there was 3 different quest lines for 3 different types of relics (and these relics, all 3 types where way stronger and way more of a grind then ffxiv's ones are, but they last, for example, my relic was 3 years and it stayed relevant for 6 more years till I quit and to this day I could return and continue to upgrade it to make it current once again, about 11 years after making it)

In everything I listed, there was no 2 close enough where it would be like diadem and Eureka here (matching concepts together like the fate train basically like what Diadem 2.0 and 3.0 share.) what you did in each of those was different enough where they did not overlap like Diadem 1-3 has done. This is what people are talking about, it has NOTHING TO DO WITH MOB KILLING = SAME. Then even WITHIN its own activity, Dynamis esp when low man, each city has significant different approaches. (before it became solo thing and changed)

That is the difference, FFXIV has nothing lasting so you have to continuously keep making new content, then to top things off, FFXIV keeps repeating the same cycles. I can say it is HW or ARR all over again (outside palace of the dead existing) same 450 cap every week, same costs, same gear gaps between those limited tomes and savage raids, etc. as i said even yoshi P is aware of the repeated nature and even remarked on it. Also consider how long something lasts and how long it takes something to be "outdated" in ffxiv, it is only a few months (read carefully on how long I said my relic remained current and had lasting value) A lot of people are starting to turn around "why bother with this, just get outdated next patch" if they happen not to like something. This holds true with these diadem 3.0 relics, why bother when the place is so under performing? SE will nerf/ adjust it and people will do it then because they always do and they have to, because of he speed things do out of date.

Are you understanding what is being said now?

[Hyperia]

One thing they must fix is the broken healing system. I looked at a few parses at my friends who are farming O8S and the WHM's top heals were Regen and Medica 2, that's it, the rest was DPS activity. The SCH wasn't much different with EOS topping the charts followed by Adalo and the rest was DPS as well. What kind of healing system is this now? Back in ARR, healing used to be... well... healing but now, its medica 2, regen, and DPS.
I've taken a break from XIV for now and I then went back to some of my other favorite games and tried to heal... Oh Em Gee... You have to heal, you have to heal hard or people die, heck people die anyhow, healing is intense and there is a lot of it. Tanks wanting to tank in DPS stance? ROFL... dream on, your tissue paper without your tank stance... or your going to kill the healer or both!

Easiest way to bring me back, bring back ARR difficulty level of healing and ditch this Medica 2 + regen stuff.... I want to heal, not DPS.

[Recruiter]

I am confused whu "crafted" does not count, it is even the same ilevel as "relics" and can be overmelded.
Your post is a bit in the deep end. No where at any time Applejinx suggested they wanted something perfect.

Crafted gear so far (and now the new relic) is has been 20 ilvs lower than raid gear. that's 20~30 main stats less. I can't think of a scenario where its better than just getting raid gear unless we're talking 1st week of the patch cycle. So I didn't count it.

At the end of the day mixing and matching between 2 sets and 2 weapons is incredibly boring. We need no less than 4 sets and several set-less pieces and weapons to add into builds per raid tier. If Relic armor is viable we now have 3 sets. If SE can muster the courage to have MMO-like stats on gear we'd be in a good place.

[ko_]

Actually I don't understand what you're saying now honestly. I don't know what you're asking them to do? Are you saying you want them to stop giving us more powerful gear and just keep one set of gear? Wouldn't that be boring as then your gear doesn't change for 6 years? I'd get bored of that real fast. I want more gear, I want to keep growing more powerful with each set. I don't want to have to hold on to 4 different sets for one or two bosses. But ok.. the other point is if it's the way you're doing it.. and changing the dance isn't enough. What do you want them to do then? Cause with the system we have there's only so much they can change to the combat so it feels different. I bring up rotations cause that wil be the easiest way to actually change how it feels on a basic level but they aren't going to do that. As that's a silly idea. So what can they do? Sides stopping all up hill gearing?

[Vstarstruck]

Actually I don't understand what you're saying now honestly. I don't know what you're asking them to do? Are you saying you want them to stop giving us more powerful gear and just keep one set of gear? Wouldn't that be boring as then your gear doesn't change for 6 years? I'd get bored of that real fast. I want more gear, I want to keep growing more powerful with each set. I don't want to have to hold on to 4 different sets for one or two bosses. But ok.. the other point is if it's the way you're doing it.. and changing the dance isn't enough. What do you want them to do then? Cause with the system we have there's only so much they can change to the combat so it feels different. I bring up rotations cause that wil be the easiest way to actually change how it feels on a basic level but they aren't going to do that. As that's a silly idea. So what can they do? Sides stopping all up hill gearing?

I am not asking them to do anything in that last post, I been trying to explain to you why people are complaining. I told you over and over and over and over "it's still killing stuff. 90%" is a bad compaersion, it is NOT why people are complaining about. For some reason, I do not know why you keep sounding like people hate this diadem 3.0 Because it is "it's still killing stuff. 90%" and thus no different then anything else.

This is not the reason why people are complaining. People are complaining because you are standing there hitting one button for 2 hrs + (even Japanese players n the OF complained about this from what I understand though translate) Or you are simply following the fate train. We did this in diadem, it was part of the reason diadem died so quickly.

For what I wanted them to do, and what I was expecting was posted here:

I was expecting new and innovate like they said, even more so when they said it needed to be delayed

With the comments made with leveling your gear being different (something along those lines, something like gear will progress with you) I thought it would be a new way of upgrading gear though battle (something like palace of the dead but done differently) with fully customize sub stats like 2.0 and 3.0 relics, like this:

Quote Originally Posted by Krotoan View Post
All I expected was an entirely different way to level up my armor. Perhaps killing monsters of a certain element charged aspects that fueled different stats. Kill fire monsters for ATK and so forth. I'd have different goals as I went but it sounded like we were going to have more power over the customization of what we were wearing.
It was hard to think that they were going to give us anything other than a revolutionary system with how tight lipped and mysterious they were about it. Sure some people got a little overhyped, but that's kind of understandable. What I don't think anyone expected was for them to outright make it so... hostile.
FFXIV has always been forgiving since 2.0 at least. You learn by trial and error, you talk to people. Now? Better have a res with you or hope someone is nice enough to res your white magic user, or 25% down the toilet, possible delevel.

I expected more involvement in the build, not more time investment than ever before.

I feared it would just be diadem 3.0 though since SE shown in the past to have poor wording at times.
What I did not expect:

Quote Originally Posted by Solarra View Post
What I didn't expect:
Nothing to do besides grind and ride the Fate-Train.
FtP-type time-waste mechanics like the pitiful XP from mob kills and the hefty death penalty.
The horrible culling issues.
Mounts and Aetherytes as rewards for levelling.
Not only is it frustrating not being able to attune below level 9 but high level players not needing to pass through areas where the lowbies are levelling might make getting rezzed difficult in the future. I'd have preferred everyone to have mounts and Aetheryte access or no one (the island isn't that big). Note: This wouldn't be an issue if there was any reason to explore.

Since we are basically spamming our rotations without a break while we are in there, I would have hoped (I admit I didn't expect) for some change to our abilities to make it less punishing on the hands.
People who played XI talk about having time to socialise and chat while fighting; I think I would have enjoyed this content more if we had a combat system that allowed that.

I also did not expect level gap to be an issue, both from ffxiv and ffxi and what is in them to prevent that. This place is so pre-alpha even after all those delays i can't wrap my head around this happened. This is a joke right? I want to be put in the real world please.

Crafted gear so far (and now the new relic) is has been 20 ilvs lower than raid gear. that's 20~30 main stats less. I can't think of a scenario where its better than just getting raid gear unless we're talking 1st week of the patch cycle. So I didn't count it.

At the end of the day mixing and matching between 2 sets and 2 weapons is incredibly boring. We need no less than 4 sets and several set-less pieces and weapons to add into builds per raid tier. If Relic armor is viable we now have 3 sets. If SE can muster the courage to have MMO-like stats on gear we'd be in a good place.

cant get i370 on day 1 and i seen time before tanks preferring right penta melds, but it depends on the stats ofc. btw considering relic is i350 as well it should "count" as it is way less effort for the same thing.

[KaivaC]

snip

I thought I had responded earlier, but looks like I closed my browser before I posted. Let me try again. I shouldn't have mentioned Blitzball in that last post because it takes away from my point. Side activities are one thing, yes, but my concern is centered on main content. One can't really say they've tried something different in the content everybody has to go through with the MSQ. The revamping of most job was nice, I'll admit (I did try a few that I hated in 3.5 that I love now). Nothing about the dance has changed at all. In fact, it's to the point where dancing requires hardly any effort.