Extreme primals do not belong in Mentor roulette.

[Avatre]

So did you latch onto the leg of the first adventurer you ran into in the game or did you actually try to play it yourself first? And what do you do when everyone in the party is new and there's no one there "to teach" you?

In a situation like that, I learned them through trial and error, worked it out with people in the group, and cleared it. You know...using the grey matter between my ears and the electrical signals that go across it for thought processing.

[Oakley]

Like i said before.The main issue is a lot of these mentors got carried through the EX fights and dont know the mechanics.Its why they are complaining about them being in mentor roulette.
They are used to having everything the easy way and cant accept that they will have to work hard for their mount.

I've stated multiple times in this thread that I explain all mechanics for each of the primals I get. I've cleared them all while relevant and am very familiar with each of them. This isn't an issue of "working hard" or not, it's an issue of negative situations arising from most novices' inability to learn difficult, sophisticated fights and the futility of Mentors who try to teach them. It's mostly a waste of time for everyone, since in most cases the novices and mentor won't be able to clear.

[NolLacnala]

It's threads like this that highlight EXACTLY why everyone rolls their eyes at the mentor crown. The players most likely to fail at mechanics are most likely to be wearing it.

Hence why they should move the mentor roulette requirements to mentor itself

[Oakley]

I'll put it in more relevant terms: You are with a group of level 70 players in Byakko EX. You know the fight and have cleared it multiple times. The other players haven't seen the fight or watched the strategy video. Presumably, as level 70 characters this far in the story and with the minimum item level of 340, they're already experienced enough with their jobs and the game in general to be able to effectively learn and execute the fight immediately, right?

How likely is it you'll clear Byakko within the time limit?

Now take that scenario and apply it to brand-new players at level 50 who don't know the strategies, team synergy, or their rotations, and you have Extreme primals in Mentor roulette.

[Krotoan]

So did you latch onto the leg of the first adventurer you ran into in the game or did you actually try to play it yourself first? And what do you do when everyone in the party is new and there's no one there "to teach" you?

No, but when I started there were no guides. We just figured stuff out. We then ran stuff again, and had to teach people because there were still no guides. I also had to learn at the time that I simply COULD NOT do certain trials because of the lag difference of where I was.

Because why does anyone does anything in this game? I wonder if a single good soul who gets on Mentors' cases like this ever went "hm I'll queue for a bunch of random extreme trials as healer or tank, because someone might need help".

Several times. I like helping. I join "learning" PF's all the time, a lot of them before there were video guides for the content.

1. Good question, ask Yoshi-P that next time you see him, he and his might've been the ones to put it there in the first place. I could be wrong though.
2. Not all mentors have access to the roulette so the point is actually kind of redundant.
3. Because it is a unique roulette, meant to help duties that take long to pop, and might not even exist within other roulettes. The fact guildhests pop as often as they do mean that despite there being a roulette for that, that sort of content needs help too. As I said before, we're queue fodder, and SE is using us well since as it turns out half their roulettes are dead. Hi 50/60

I most definitely would expect that someone who is used to the japanese culture of the many over the few would expect the more experienced players to help out the less experienced ones and provided a queue to do so. But of course thats speculation.

Because ON TOP OF THAT I have successfully cleared each and every duty in the roulette, which means I at least have them unlocked and might not be complete dead weight if I go in there (hence the problem with people who got their clear unsynced, but that leads us back to whether or not extreme trials should be in the roulette in the first place if that's what it takes for most people to clear it at all, something even Yoshi-P acknowledged when he encouraged people to try out HW extremes when SB came out).

So you're saying that think because you've cleared content that is available to everyone including the "hard" ones you need a reward in the form of an extra bonus xp per day run and it should go smoothly for all content and you are well within your agreement as a mentor to drop out if it starts getting less than adequate?

And yet we're not discussing the title, we're discussing the roulette, which too many people take to be interchangable. And as for the roulette...
Works as intended, God bless.

We're discussing content that most definitely NEEDS actual mentors to help people through it being dropped from this roulette. Personally if you think a duty should be removed because it's a bother when you get it, I think that's pretty selfish for someone who agreed to be a mentor or join a mentor roulette.

[BillyKaplan]

No, but when I started there were no guides. We just figured stuff out. We then ran stuff again, and had to teach people because there were still no guides. I also had to learn at the time that I simply COULD NOT do certain trials because of the lag difference of where I was.

People can still play like that. It's ok. No one needs a mentor to walk them through an ex primal fight, least of all when they refuse to listen.

I join "learning" PF's all the time, a lot of them before there were video guides for the content.

Amazing, it's almost like this sort of content should be ran through PF so that not only will you get like-minded people, but you also have a ways to advertise your first-timer status and get people who'd help you with it :thinking:

I most definitely would expect that someone who is used to the japanese culture of the many over the few would expect the more experienced players to help out the less experienced ones and provided a queue to do so.

And I'm sure that's what Yoshi-P and his team had in mind and that's how it most likely works in Japan. But last I checked, this is the English section of the forums, most of us are not, in fact, Japanese or even that familiar with their culture, and expecting us to behave in such a manner is honestly pretty out there. As it turns out, people outside Japan play the game as well and they're entitled to their own views of the matter. Not that we even know how things really are over there as even if I were to visit that portion of the forums, I do not read Japanese.

So you're saying that think because you've cleared content that is available to everyone including the "hard" ones you need a reward

I said no such thing, not that it ever stopped you before. Stop forcing the people you debate into the villain narrative you feel comfortable combating and actually listen for once.

We're discussing content that most definitely NEEDS actual mentors to help people through it being dropped from this roulette.

What do you do with someone who cleared the thing 3 years ago? He's a mentor. He's in the roulette. He's the first to die every single time because he's as good as a first timer. What do? I mean seriously, Mentors are human beings, stop making us into something we're not. We are not, in fact, obligated to remember every single mechanic in the game, least of all to be able to explain it. And what of Mentors who can't even communicate with their team? SE never required any of that.
The goal of the roulette is, again, not to help people clear content, it is to help them enter content. Note the difference, stated perfectly clear in the patch notes regarding the roulette itself.

Personally if you think a duty should be removed because it's a bother when you get it, I think that's pretty selfish for someone who agreed to be a mentor or join a mentor roulette.

1. There's a difference between saying a duty is a bother (let's remove Aurum Vale and the Vault from the roulette while we're at it then, shall we?), and saying that people's experiences with extreme trials via the roulette has been poor and unsuccessful, and that many mentors were actually disillusioned by doing their very best only to have first timers 1. not listen, 2. fail the same mechanics, 3. bite your head off for trying to explain. Like many people said, you wouldn't expect a Mentor to be able to walk people through Byakko Ex right now, or Shinryu a patch ago, so why is that expected from mentors in synced Sephirot ex, or even synced Shiva ex?
2. Seeing how #1 and #3 don't really apply here (I have explained Ramuh ex until I was blue in the face, do you think it got anyone their clear or that they even listened?), that leaves us with #2, and you're really taking some broad liberties with that one. I'm not talking about mentors who insta-bail, but if after 3 attempts the party keeps wiping to the exact same mechanic which I have already explained and I initiate a vote-abandoned that goes through, nothing I would've been able to achieve on my own, I do not think it in any way shape or form breaks #2. But between us, when that sort of experience repeats itself numerous times, maybe leaving those trials in the roulette is ultimately a waste of everyone's time.

[Krotoan]

People can still play like that. It's ok. No one needs a mentor to walk them through an ex primal fight, least of all when they refuse to listen.

if people refuse to listen you can't help them, and of course nobody needs one, but I'm sure many would like one.

Amazing, it's almost like this sort of content should be ran through PF so that not only will you get like-minded people, but you also have a ways to advertise your first-timer status and get people who'd help you with it :thinking:

Then PF needs to be stressed more and explained. It currently isn't.

And I'm sure that's what Yoshi-P and his team had in mind and that's how it most likely works in Japan. But last I checked, this is the English section of the forums, most of us are not, in fact, Japanese or even that familiar with their culture, and expecting us to behave in such a manner is honestly pretty out there. As it turns out, people outside Japan play the game as well and they're entitled to their own views of the matter. Not that we even know how things really are over there as even if I were to visit that portion of the forums, I do not read Japanese.

you were speculating on who implemented it and why. I'm not going to debate the fact that our cultures see it differently, that's given.

I said no such thing, not that it ever stopped you before. Stop forcing the people you debate into the villain narrative you feel comfortable combating and actually listen for once.

and you're always super combative about everything. I'm trying to discuss things. Stop trying to make me out to be some manipulative , polarizing , close-minded dunce. I listen all the time, and then I respond. Usually to everything and then people ignore what they don't like in my post and reply to the rest. I will say I appreciate you reading all I write and responding in kind. If you're reading my posts thinking I'm sitting here trying to "gotcha" or lord it over you, you're very wrong. My mind is open to be changed but you cannot begrudge me my own perception. If I say "so you're saying" you are more than welcome to say "no I'm not saying that" and clarifying. This time you said no and then attacked me, please clarify your position.

What do you do with someone who cleared the thing 3 years ago? He's a mentor. He's in the roulette. He's the first to die every single time because he's as good as a first timer. What do? I mean seriously, Mentors are human beings, stop making us into something we're not. We are not, in fact, obligated to remember every single mechanic in the game, least of all to be able to explain it. And what of Mentors who can't even communicate with their team? SE never required any of that.
The goal of the roulette is, again, not to help people clear content, it is to help them enter content. Note the difference, stated perfectly clear in the patch notes regarding the roulette itself.

Someone who cleared something 3 years ago can say so "Hey, it's been a while. Gimme a second to brush up on this". Why be a mentor if you can't communicate? Why flag yourself? Why do the roulette aside from the reward? If you're going to use the system I'd expect you to be of the mind to help, not just exist.

1. There's a difference between saying a duty is a bother (let's remove Aurum Vale and the Vault from the roulette while we're at it then, shall we?), and saying that people's experiences with extreme trials via the roulette has been poor and unsuccessful, and that many mentors were actually disillusioned by doing their very best only to have first timers 1. not listen, 2. fail the same mechanics, 3. bite your head off for trying to explain. Like many people said, you wouldn't expect a Mentor to be able to walk people through Byakko Ex right now, or Shinryu a patch ago, so why is that expected from mentors in synced Sephirot ex, or even synced Shiva ex?
2. Seeing how #1 and #3 don't really apply here (I have explained Ramuh ex until I was blue in the face, do you think it got anyone their clear or that they even listened?), that leaves us with #2, and you're really taking some broad liberties with that one. I'm not talking about mentors who insta-bail, but if after 3 attempts the party keeps wiping to the exact same mechanic which I have already explained and I initiate a vote-abandoned that goes through, nothing I would've been able to achieve on my own, I do not think it in any way shape or form breaks #2. But between us, when that sort of experience repeats itself numerous times, maybe leaving those trials in the roulette is ultimately a waste of everyone's time.

Because they signed up for the mentor program. IF these failed parties don't listen and IF they continue to ignore and be hostile to the person trying to be helpful then sure, give a short "hey, It looks like you folks could use more help on this than I can provide. There's lots of resources out there to help you out. Check "video name" or "google search that results in a text walkthrough". I'm out of time for this activity though. Good luck!".
The fact you consider it a waste of time purely on the merit that some people aren't going to be good players tells me you don't have the patience to teach or mentor people or maybe if you're feeling like you don't want to deal with it that day/week/year you don't run the queue? Eventually the queue will die and SE will find a fix for it, or others will step up to the plate teach the unteachables, OR those who cannot listen or take advice will quit and make room for those who will.