Tales from Duty Finder: Some make you laugh, some make you cry. Let's vent.

[Nestama]

This tank (Blue) clearly woke up one the wrong side of the bed, or had a very bad day... or are genuinely a horrible person :^)
I really wanted to be sassy and ignore everything the tank demanded ("you don't pay my sub" was something I really wanted to say. It HURT to not say it), but at the time I wasn't sure what the SAM and WHM's opinion on Salty McTanksbad was and since it was a little after 10PM, I didn't want to risk a kick.


They were pretty quick leaving the dungeon. Like they could sense a storm ridicule coming their way. We were not kind...

By the way, the tanks first outburst was over nothing. I just did Fleche and that was it. Tank still had hate on the one Phoebad and stopped mid-pull to scream. No idea what they were on about regarding the AoE's of the final boss (they even had the boss facing the group at one point, so... pot meet kettle).

[winsock]

[snip]
By the way, the tanks first outburst was over nothing. I just did Fleche and that was it. Tank still had hate on the one Phoebad and stopped mid-pull to scream. No idea what they were on about regarding the AoE's of the final boss (they even had the boss facing the group at one point, so... pot meet kettle).

The tank going into an all caps outburst was uncalled for, but it wasnt over nothing. It was over DPS occurring during the pull. How do you think that situation would have turned out if you just would have said "ok" to the tank rather than try to justify the use of Fleche (which you really shouldnt have used)?

Generally speaking, DPS that occurs during the pull and before an AoE fight is worthless. The reason DPS is valuable that it makes fights go faster, but not all dps does this. For example, assume you use Fleche during the pull, then you move to your AoE rotation once the pull ends. The mob you hit with Fleche might die a GCD earlier than the rest, but the rest of the mobs are still going to need to be AoE'd. The fight is going to take the same amount of time with or without a Fleche during the pull, so it didnt add any value. If threat reduction is used dealing useless damage, you might not have it when dealing useful damage.

There are a handful of reasons to deal damage during the pull, but they usually have little to do with DPS uptime. A bard might spread DoTs during the pull to get MB procs for RoD. A monk might deal a little damage to keep/build GL stacks. Stuff like this is useful can reduce the fight time.

[Vidu]

The tank going into an all caps outburst was uncalled for, but it wasnt over nothing. It was over DPS occurring during the pull. How do you think that situation would have turned out if you just would have said "ok" to the tank rather than try to justify the use of Fleche (which you really shouldnt have used)?

Generally speaking, DPS that occurs during the pull and before an AoE fight is worthless. The reason DPS is valuable that it makes fights go faster, but not all dps does this. For example, assume you use Fleche during the pull, then you move to your AoE rotation once the pull ends. The mob you hit with Fleche might die a GCD earlier than the rest, but the rest of the mobs are still going to need to be AoE'd. The fight is going to take the same amount of time with or without a Fleche during the pull, so it didnt add any value. If threat reduction is used dealing useless damage, you might not have it when dealing useful damage.

There are a handful of reasons to deal damage during the pull, but they usually have little to do with DPS uptime. A bard might spread DoTs during the pull to get MB procs for RoD. A monk might deal a little damage to keep/build GL stacks. Stuff like this is useful can reduce the fight time.

No. Just no, but first the forums wouldnt let me and second I would like to explain my no after all.

First off: To a good tank AoE/attacks during pulls dont matter. You wont lose hate if you know how to tank - or rather: if you use your AoE-aggro-move once one the group before you pull. Specially when the DPS is prepared to use aggro-drop-tools, like any good DPS should be.

Second: Have you never noticed that different mobs die with different speeds because they have different HP/defense? Using your singletarget-skills on such a mob isnt wasted but rather helpful to ensure that even that stronger mob dies within the same timeframe of the others. Same goes for mobs that hit harder - no harm in them dying faster. And a good DPS will use their oGCD-single-target-skills on such a mob for the entire fight, not only during the pull.

Third: You're mentioning that for certain classes its fine to dps during pulls, but you cant have your cake and eat it too. Or rather: In order to allow those classes to deal damage during the pull, you'll have to establish hate anyways, which opens the floor for everyone to use any skill they might have because they're not ripping aggro anyways. A bard dot is fine, a blm one isnt? Monk stacks are okay, Blood of the Dragon is not? Its silly to pick and choose here when the bottomline is either way: One Flash establishes enough hate for the dps to use the odd skill during the pull or even for the healer to throw out a heal should they panic.

For a good tank, DPS occuring during the pull is something they wont even notice. So yeah... getting upset about that is getting upset about "nothing".

[winsock]

You wont lose hate if you know how to tank

Im not going to be able to hold off a good DPS who goes ham on a single mob who has been hit with a single flash / shield lob, unless i pulls small. If a good dps wants to pull off me during a large pull, they're be able too. There is no reason for them to go ham, for the same reason there's no reason for them to be doing their single target rotation in an AoE situation.

Have you never noticed that different mobs die with different speeds because they have different HP/defense?

Yes, if auto-attacks during AoE arent enough to bring them in line i'd agree that it is fine. Phoebad is not on of these.

You're mentioning that for certain classes its fine to dps during pulls, but you cant have your cake and eat it too. Or rather: In order to allow those classes to deal damage during the pull, you'll have to establish hate anyways, which opens the floor for everyone to use any skill they might have because they're not ripping aggro anyways.

It's not about holding hate, it's about doing things that are useful. A healer could hit me with cure II during while im at full hp, it doesnt mean that they should or are adding any benefit. Fleche is usually not useful during a pull because it typically will not result in a decrease in fight time. Bard DoTs are because the AoE dps increase that occurs after the pull will help reduce fight time

[Lilseph]

Can we post about pvp in here? I mean I guess pvp is also in Duty Finder but not sure if it counts. O_o;

So, we started off with four Bards then one of the guys were like, "Not enough Bards."
... And then this happened! @_@;



RIP I was the only one who didn't have a Bard leveled yet. >>;
But meh, whatever, ONWARD TO VICTORY, BARD SQUAD!!! I'll heal you with my scrubby Vercure heals!!!! +fight

Your party was a killing machine o_O

[SenorPatty]

@Winsock: The tank screaming mid-pull was over nothing. Idk how you tank during pulls but I make sure I establish hate over whatever's in front of me with my aoe aggro move. The mark of a good dps who does dps while things are still getting pulled is one that watches their aggro. Nestama had their enmity dump skill at the ready. Also, dpsing during a pull is hardly worthless. A mob dying faster than the others just means leas dmg taken by the tank, less opportunity for said mob to use pesky aoes, less resources spent by healer to keep tank alive.

[Nestama]

It's not about holding hate, it's about doing things that are useful. A healer could hit me with cure II during while im at full hp, it doesnt mean that they should or are adding any benefit. Fleche is usually not useful during a pull because it typically will not result in a decrease in fight time. Bard DoTs are because the AoE dps increase that occurs after the pull will help reduce fight time

There's a lot of things wrong with your reasoning on why I shouldn't DPS while mobs are being pulled. Fleche is oGCD and single target and it can be used while I'm still moving. I could have even used a Swiftcasted Verthunder or Veraero. Any DPS counts and Phoebads have A LOT of HP. Not doing DPS when I technically can is worthless, since I'm doing nothing but running.

Also, based on what the SAM and WHM told me, the tanks attitude was already/always bad. The Skalla run was a join in progress and they told me the other DPS left the moment the tank started talking. I chose to say "Why?" because they are the only tank to ever demand me/DPS to not DPS during pulls (again, not worthless). It was a strange demand, especially as I had Lucid ready. I was actually tempted to ask if it was even okay for the WHM to give them Regen during pulls.

[MoroMurasaki]

snip

Fleche is on a 25 second CD. It should virtually never be held onto for anything but an upcoming dps check that you could actually need it for. I held onto mine for add phases in the Rabanastre I did last night because I was worried we couldn't burn the adds down fast enough.

I also find it hilarious that you're comparing "going ham" to a single use of an oGCD ability. If the RDM from the original story had rushed in and used their melee combo then perhaps we would have something to discuss, though obviously the larger problem would still be not saving their mana for Moulinet.

Your entire train of thought is objectively wrong. Holding dps back while you are able to dps, especially if you have enmity reductions at hand, is just being bad. There is no reason to. It is on the tank to establish enmity and on the dps to manage theirs with the skills they have available.

The entire concept of "things won't die much faster" is garbage as well - they will die at least a bit faster, especially with an attack as potent as Fleche hitting them. This means less damage coming in which means more opportunity for your healer to dps and less time your tank needs to spend in tank stance. The primary job of a dps is to kill things as quickly as possible.

[Alaray]

There are a handful of reasons to deal damage during the pull, but they usually have little to do with DPS uptime. A bard might spread DoTs during the pull to get MB procs for RoD. A monk might deal a little damage to keep/build GL stacks. Stuff like this is useful can reduce the fight time.

DPS have skills that reduce enmity. Diversion is a particularly good one, and if a tank loses hate to a DPS who has Diversion up I'm frankly unsure how the tank lost hate unless they fat fingered "Shirk."

So even during the movement of pulling, DPS should be fine even if they land a 40k crit on something provided they are using their enmity cooldowns correctly. If not, then that's on them.

Most of the time, it helps your DPS build up their various gauges for their harder hitting AoE, too. Which does make things die faster.

[JohnnyDevo]

In this game which hands tanks aggro on a silver platter and gives healers more healing capabilities then they need, there is absolutely zero argument that can ever be made about anyone doing a little bit extra damage.

If dealing damage to mobs during the pull becomes a problem, someone did something wrong. An example: I, as a red mage, have worked out a method for keeping up with the tank while almost keeping my gcd running the whole time. I constantly watch the aggro meters as I'm tapping the mobs, and I switch between them constantly when I get too close. Meanwhile, I'm taking full advantage of sprint, dualcast, swiftcast, and corps-a-corps to keep up with both the pull and my casts. And when I mess up and pull off the tank? I run alongside him and bring the stray right in line with the rest of the group.

The result? I usually have at least one moulinet ready, mobs are already softened, run goes quicker.