Players since 2.0, how do you feel the raiding community compares now?

[ChameleonMS]

From my experience, raiding is easier, simply because it is easier to form a group.
During the 2.x series, I was on Goblin, a very small server back then. Sitting in PF for 8 hours just to get a pug together was commonplace. A typical primetime night would see 2-3 PFs.
My entire FC changed to Gilgamesh for this reason alone, pugs were common place on Greg. A typical primetime night would see 30-40 PFs.
With the advent of the cross world PF, raiding is easier simply because the available player pool is expanded. More players get a chance to practice and fall on their face more often. This leads to better familiarity with the content and more clears.

[Dzian]

I'm on the other side of the fence I loved coil had a great story and really pushed to get through it and find out what happens next. Amazing to beat and be running around with a final witness title. Quite prestigious. Plus some of the dreadwrym gear looked beastly.

Since 3.0 landed I just haven't bothered there's no reason to. Already seen the story in normal mode. And seeing what they did unsyncing coil meant all the other rewards were junk. Any Muppet could get that minion and title.... and the very design of the gear treadmill means even the gear is trash. Not even entry level for the next set as crafted is better....

4.0 is basically the same. Pointless

[amihavingfunyet]

Can't really say too much since I've been with the same static since 2.4 now.
One thing that bugs me though is that you don't have to go to the raid entrance anymore like in Coil and Gordias. It usually lead to some exchange with other groups/raiders, but now everyone just sits in their garden or city of choice.
I don't want the normal mode (or any of its rewards) removed, but I wish we could just go straight into savage without "spoiling" the fight.
I also preferred not having fflogs.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

I fell in love with raiding when I just didn't want to deal with the relic quest anymore very early on. Back then, I was in a VERY casual FC, almost all of which weren't interested in raiding. So I got out there and networked, kept finding people who also wanted to learn, and we took on T5 (which was aging already at the time, and shortly before Second Coil became a thing). I think we were at it for 3-4 months before we finally pulled it off, and the BLM that would later create her own static (which I subbed for then ultimately joined for a while) thanked me for having taught her and all the others all of T5, purely just by constantly dragging them in there. Downing T6 together was yet another moment I hold close to my heart.

A LOT of FC drama and other things happened around the Gordias timeline, when my FC finally formed a static from the few of us serious about raiding. Don't even want to get into that, but it ultimately led to my rise to FC leader (after much damage was done and many left or left to follow the former lead), and not long after that, my departure from said static and eventually leaving the FC (I was the last remaining original member, and had been largely unhappy-but-loyal throughout all of ARR). I suppose the one good that came from it was that I rediscovered PvP and more importantly, that sense of teamwork and camaraderie that attracted me to raiding in the first place. I sat out of Midas Savage and didn't miss it at all.

Raiding now is. . . alright. I don't feel any worse or any better personally, but that's probably because I'm always working out my own little optimizations or ways to do it better in everything I do. I don't want to speak ill of FFLogs, but both being a console player, and playing a job so marginally/conditionally accepted, I really have no love or care for it. I don't even bother checking now as my current static lacks a DRG, thus everything I do would be lesser than what it could be, plus I'll trade big dick DPS numbers for proper mechanical execution any day. I want to win more than I want to show off. And yes, I understand there's more to FFLogs than waving around numbers, but let's not sugarcoat things: If people can, they will. And I just don't care.

I'm probably an awful person to have such a devil-may-care attitude toward the stereotypically "hardcore" types. You know, the ones that require logs and treat joining a static like applying for a job. I mean, if that gets them good results, I respect that, but I also find it a bit laughable. So as not to step on toes, I think it's less about building a perfect team for me, but more of becoming part of a solid unit. If we're good, it's because we're strong together; if we're bad, we're bad together and can work to improve, rather than being ready to just give people the axe and treat them as if they as players are so expendable, or the job they play overrules any and all qualities the player themselves may have. I can join any team any time; I want strong companions to face challenges with and grow to call friends

As for the raids themselves. . . well, I miss the sense of "exploration" Coil had. I miss the sense of adventuring into the unknown. We knew something was down there. Once we knew what was down there, we knew WHY we had to go back. And getting in was hard enough. Getting back out was the challenge. I miss that. Alexander wasn't terrible, but the goblin thing, the peppy music, and in the case of Savage, the shotgunning right into the battles just made it feel like running some extreme trial again, turned up to 11. Omega's been okay, but largely due to nostalgia. Still, I feel like I'm just running trials, and with both raids and trials getting a bit stale these days, I just don't enjoy it as much as I did Coil.

[KaldeaSahaline]

I haven't raided every tier, as I tend to go back and forth between this game and WoW depending on expansion/patch, but I do have extensive raid experience in this game and in other MMO's as well.

There are specific elements when discussing raids and the community that need to be identified up front that most people don't realize:

Cross world PF and external tools like ACT, FFLogs, & Discord are directly responsible for more people raiding than ever before and at a much higher level than they were previously.

What this point demonstrates is that things that used to be a challenge become less so over time. You have a larger pool of players who have on average more skill and they are armed with infinitely more information that they've EVER had previously.

With that elephant out of the way, now we can discuss encounter design.

I definitely believe that encounters are easier now than they were before. Most fights are so scripted in how you surpass each phase via generally only one correct solution. I felt like older fights had more "soft enrage" styled design where you you could try different things based on gear levels etc.

For instance I felt like you had more choice in how to approach the encounter and the choice would yield different results based on gear/skill level. Now, more gear/skill just means you cut off stuff at the end of the fight by not seeing the last phase repeats, etc.

[ZXSoru]

I started raiding around Scob and it was my first attempt at serious raiding, as I did a bit of raids in WoW, WoTLK, but very casual, didn't beat all bosses in any tier. I think back then raiding was difficult for various reasons.

First the game was kinda new, the underlying mechanics weren't as known as today, for example slide casting, also the net infrastructure was really bad, as one of the reasons TitanEx was so hard was because there was a big delay, like a snapshot of aoe mechanics so you had to act much more quickly than now, also the game wasn't that fined tuned so you didn't need so much uptime and dps like now, I mean healers and tanks were expected to dps but not so much and many many PLDs tanked in Shield all the fight, but the focus on mechanics was very important, that's probably why I like coils so much, because every fight has some really interesting mechanics even today.

Also, the story was super top notch and hard to match today, as it was the ending of 1.0 basically. I remember the hype of watching the cinematic after clearing T12, and the loot was also really cool looking and more exclusive, not just a dyable version.

But right now raids have a clear identity and I think they are in a better spot right now. Finding a static back then was hell, not many people were playing and even less were raiding, Because of the lack of information, stuff like Mizzteq and super FCs websites were the only way to really learn the fight, right now there are a lot of options and graphs to have better understanding of the fights.

Raids right now are more streamlined and considering I was a victim of PepsiMan(A3S) as I even stopped playing for a while after that fight I think the difficulty of savage raids is where it should be, with ultimate being the top fight to clear for heavy raiders.

FFlogs is a nice addition overall, as its like a resumé of sorts which is a nice and quick way of looking at someone performance, problem is some are too obsessed with it. When I see a guy with a bunch of orange numbers its a red flag to me and not worth even talking with.

I think overall, I just would like more fights overall, 4 is not bad but I enjoy the fights in this game so I would like more, and the changes to the raids are a natural course considering how the game is evolving.

[ShanXiv]

I fell in love with raiding when I just didn't want to deal with the relic quest anymore very early on. Back then, I was in a VERY casual FC, almost all of which weren't interested in raiding. So I got out there and networked, kept finding people who also wanted to learn, and we took on T5 (which was aging already at the time, and shortly before Second Coil became a thing). I think we were at it for 3-4 months before we finally pulled it off, and the BLM that would later create her own static (which I subbed for then ultimately joined for a while) thanked me for having taught her and all the others all of T5, purely just by constantly dragging them in there. Downing T6 together was yet another moment I hold close to my heart.

A LOT of FC drama and other things happened around the Gordias timeline, when my FC finally formed a static from the few of us serious about raiding. Don't even want to get into that, but it ultimately led to my rise to FC leader (after much damage was done and many left or left to follow the former lead), and not long after that, my departure from said static and eventually leaving the FC (I was the last remaining original member, and had been largely unhappy-but-loyal throughout all of ARR). I suppose the one good that came from it was that I rediscovered PvP and more importantly, that sense of teamwork and camaraderie that attracted me to raiding in the first place. I sat out of Midas Savage and didn't miss it at all.

Raiding now is. . . alright. I don't feel any worse or any better personally, but that's probably because I'm always working out my own little optimizations or ways to do it better in everything I do. I don't want to speak ill of FFLogs, but both being a console player, and playing a job so marginally/conditionally accepted, I really have no love or care for it. I don't even bother checking now as my current static lacks a DRG, thus everything I do would be lesser than what it could be, plus I'll trade big dick DPS numbers for proper mechanical execution any day. I want to win more than I want to show off. And yes, I understand there's more to FFLogs than waving around numbers, but let's not sugarcoat things: If people can, they will. And I just don't care.

I'm probably an awful person to have such a devil-may-care attitude toward the stereotypically "hardcore" types. You know, the ones that require logs and treat joining a static like applying for a job. I mean, if that gets them good results, I respect that, but I also find it a bit laughable. So as not to step on toes, I think it's less about building a perfect team for me, but more of becoming part of a solid unit. If we're good, it's because we're strong together; if we're bad, we're bad together and can work to improve, rather than being ready to just give people the axe and treat them as if they as players are so expendable, or the job they play overrules any and all qualities the player themselves may have. I can join any team any time; I want strong companions to face challenges with and grow to call friends

As for the raids themselves. . . well, I miss the sense of "exploration" Coil had. I miss the sense of adventuring into the unknown. We knew something was down there. Once we knew what was down there, we knew WHY we had to go back. And getting in was hard enough. Getting back out was the challenge. I miss that. Alexander wasn't terrible, but the goblin thing, the peppy music, and in the case of Savage, the shotgunning right into the battles just made it feel like running some extreme trial again, turned up to 11. Omega's been okay, but largely due to nostalgia. Still, I feel like I'm just running trials, and with both raids and trials getting a bit stale these days, I just don't enjoy it as much as I did Coil.

it's like playing Chess, playing it with an AI(or NPC, or random strangers), or as a professional, you will get bored or get tired very fast,
but playing it with you friend, casually, you will never get bored or get tired,
that's why SE should focus more on the community and the mid-core party contents, (like some contents in XI & XIV1.2x)

[ZXSoru]

I definitely believe that encounters are easier now than they were before. Most fights are so scripted in how you surpass each phase via generally only one correct solution.

I disagree, even during SCOB fights were heavily scripted, take T7 for example, the game has always the same mechanics order and the only variances are who gets which debuff, ie curse shriek/voice, but even adds during that fight always appear at each cardinal point. The game has been always focused on learning "Simon Says" but the way the add and implement mechanics are what I prefer in this game compared to others, just watch many of WoWs legion raid bosses and mechanics are pretty simple, but then you have byakko with its shoot em up bullets, and who knows what we will get in the future.

[KaldeaSahaline]

I disagree, even during SCOB fights were heavily scripted so there's nothing to disagree with there, take T7 for example, the game has always the same mechanics order and the only variances are who gets which debuff, ie curse shriek/voice, but even adds during that fight always appear at each cardinal point. The game has been always focused on learning "Simon Says" but the way the add and implement mechanics are what I prefer in this game compared to others, just watch many of WoWs legion raid bosses and mechanics are pretty simple, but then you have byakko with its shoot em up bullets, and who knows what we will get in the future.

Don't get triggered by the word scripted, both then and now are scripted. That wasn't what I wanted to key in on; what is important is that the scripts feel like they only allow for a singular solution whereas before I FELT that the scripts were looser allowing different solutions to the mechanics.

You could feed slimes and melee LB super slug, or caster LB them all, or feed them naturally one at a time. It changed depending on gear and skill of the group. Similar to T1 as well with feeding slimes, burning down damage etc. Stuff like tower order for T8 too. Adds were not intermissions, but actually present with bosses and were checkfails, not instawipes. Stuff like T6 bulbs spawning randomly in the room and having to adjust strats on the fly. I mean hell compare tethers in T6 to the tethers we see now lol.

I raided almost the entirety of legion. The mechanics are no more simple than the stuff I deal with in current Savage and I'm progging O8S right now, fully via pugs. For what purpose do you mention Legion raids here?

I cleared Byakko EX in a pug in 4 pulls. I figured out how to manage the falling bullets in less than 10 seconds. What exactly do you mention this specific mechanic for?

[Istaru]

I'm on the other side of the fence I loved coil had a great story and really pushed to get through it and find out what happens next. Amazing to beat and be running around with a final witness title. Quite prestigious. Plus some of the dreadwrym gear looked beastly.

Since 3.0 landed I just haven't bothered there's no reason to. Already seen the story in normal mode. And seeing what they did unsyncing coil meant all the other rewards were junk. Any Muppet could get that minion and title.... and the very design of the gear treadmill means even the gear is trash. Not even entry level for the next set as crafted is better....

4.0 is basically the same. Pointless

I’m there with you.