Paladin is now the worst dps performing tank job.

[Zyneste]

Lol, comparing WAR's to themselves on Doom Train Savage, or to the other tanks. That fights parses are so cheesed for WAR it is not even funny. The top parses have the WAR IR the add phase, which sky rockets the dps. But if you set it to boss only, you now hurt WAR's that do the IR ghost kill so no one else has to go in.

RDM can also do this cheese at no resource loss.

[Valdegarde]

I cleared o7s on drk week 2, so I did for a while.

Why not play it for the rest of the fights then, especially ones in which auto attack damage isn't so predictable? Surely TBN and Dark Knight as a class is so powerful that the allure must be great enough for people to want to continue playing it, and the current usage rates aren't indicative of anything at all.

I apologize for singling you out, but this is salt in the wounds and part of the problem.

To attempt to bring this topic back around to the perspective of Paladin DPS disparity, I just combed through the top 10 speed kills for each fight in Sigmascape Savage currently, and not only is Dark Knight the vast minority (10% or so) of total clears, when it does show up with Paladin it tends to be extremely close or a little less, and on many of the fights Paladin is fairly close to its Warrior partner. This again is a hazard of relying on FFLogs statistics to confidently cite class balance issues using cherry picked data, but since everyone seems to be so intent on continuing to do so, even still the points being made are rather unsubstantiated.

There's a nastier underlying assumption here that I think is triggering many of the Dark Knights into a frenzy, which is that merely the thought of Paladins being perceived to be lower than Dark Knight damage, which by all accounts they SHOULD be based off what the logic of the developers seems to be on the surface, somehow makes them vastly inferior to Dark Knights and totally undesirable as anything but an off-tank slave, which is simply not true in practice. This flies in the face of months and months of Dark Knights trying to demonstrate that their class is currently underperforming in every way in an attempt to gain recognition and support.

Paladin DPS could legitimately be overall far worse than Dark Knight (which it isn't) and Paladin would still be vastly preferable to Warrior and especially Dark Knight for myriad reasons.

[Hruodig]

Why not play it for the rest of the fights then, especially ones in which auto attack damage isn't so predictable? Surely TBN and Dark Knight as a class is so powerful that the allure must be great enough for people to want to continue playing it, and the current usage rates aren't indicative of anything at all.

I thought it was assumed that I took it into 5 and 6 before I took it into 7, but I guess not? I thought (and still think) that drk shines in 5 and 6. Every tank buster is magical, tbn is great for punishing auto attacks in 6, you have plunge for movement mechanics, da+dp for aoe padding in 5? It was pretty good. In 7 I felt that drk shines a little less due to the lack of magical tank busters, but it was still perfectly viable. In god kefka it'd be great too, since the double drill tank busters are all magical.

PS: all auto attack damage is predictable. The only rng is crits, and every tank has to deal with that.

[Valdegarde]

Apologies, I had mistaken v7 for Chardanook, since I've seen so much discussion on it lately.

[Nedkel]

Yes, TBN is powerfull...

But, it's also very costly ressource wise, even if we gain blood when it breaks, ressource we could have use to make more DPS, while other Tanks use all their cooldown for free (at the exception of Inner beast... which is used as a last resort or progress option on WAR).
But it's awkward to use outside of Tank Busters because of the nature of the shield and the necessity to make it break.
But it's generally not powerfull enough on its own to take Tank Busters outside of Grit when it screams to be used on it, meaning we must use others CDs.
But it take too much damn place on the defensive kit, meaning we're lacking on defensive cooldowns, particularly on the physical side.
But it can only be used on one party member, making it a very weak party utility compared to what WAR and PLD got.
But it's far weaker than intervention and cover when used on the other Tank.

Really, I love TBN as much as I hate it. It's on some aspects powerfull and awesome, and on the other aspect a real pain in the ass. And as Valdegarde said, we're sick of hearing we're fine because of TBN, when it's at the same time our poison and our salvation. It makes CD planing much more cumbersome than it needs to be, and we can't take the luxury to waste other CDs on fluff damage.

I'm just starting Sigma savage as of now, I'm not some top tier player, but I've played all three tanks on Delta and Extremes. To obtain the same result, DRK must do damn much more than PLD and WAR, which is frustrating, and it isn't taking into account the utility other brings we can't. And don't make me started on how WAR far outdps both of PLD and DRK while being superior to both of them, or at least equal to PLD depending on how you view it, on the defensive side. (it doesn't mean I hate WAR or want it put on the ground, actually I love playing it as of now)

TBN when it breaks gives you much more DPS than that 2400 mana.
Bloodspiller is 475 potency alone, even Carve and spit + da doesnt give that much potency, DA only gives 140 potency to each ability and it costs you same amount of mp.

Im using it outside of tankbusters all the time and i keep breaking it.
And none of the tanks has one ability that could save them outside of their tank stance, if they have its on super high cooldown and its being rarely used just like living death for drk.
Its a weak supporting ability, but it wasnt mean to be strong, it has low cd, decent amount of health for yourself and it bring more dps to the table.

And yes DRK is far more challenging to play than other two tanks, thats not a secret, but you play it anyway so i guess its more involving to play and its not that bad and boring, it could be rewarding.
As a DRK i love how at deltascape i believe v4 i was tanking the boss and managed to live with 2% of health, when the Pally just died next to me from that aoe tank buster.

[shao32]

snip.

TBN is designe to be neutral on terms of dps when it pops, at the current state you only gain like 3 potency when it pops if i remember well on specific scenarios, so is not really a dps gain, carve and spit is by far more superior bcs is a ogcd compared to bloodspiller bcs you have to use a gcd.

and using it outside of TB have a lot of risk, yes can help, it help me sometimes too but is true some of those moment ends like a waste of dps bcs the boss start casting something or it leaves, TBN cant be use it outside of TB or aoes effectively to gain nothing and have risk of being punished.

[SkyEdge1]

And none of the tanks has one ability that could save them outside of their tank stance, if they have its on super high cooldown and its being rarely used just like living death for.

Clemency would like a word.

[Nedkel]

TBN is designe to be neutral on terms of dps when it pops, at the current state you only gain like 3 potency when it pops if i remember well on specific scenarios, so is not really a dps gain, carve and spit is by far more superior bcs is a ogcd compared to bloodspiller bcs you have to use a gcd.

and using it outside of TB have a lot of risk, yes can help, it help me sometimes too but is true some of those moment ends like a waste of dps bcs the boss start casting something or it leaves, TBN cant be use it outside of TB or aoes effectively to gain nothing and have risk of being punished.

Its not a few potency increase, if you get 1-2-3 combo and boost it by DA it will give you 840 total, divided by 3 its 280 potency per GCD use.
Still 475 potency is better.
And Carve and spit has its cooldown of 60 seconds, you dont have really problems to manage enough MP to use it every time its up with DA, using TBN will not take away from you a resources to do that combo, you could easly manage using DA + carve everytime it is up and use TBN everyonce in a while.
If you want to compare the little dps numbers :
Using tbn every 15 second and breaking it will give you bloodspiller for 475, take 280 away because of gcd and DA, and you end up with 195 potency boost every 15 seconds in grit stance, and 13 potency DPS more, where DA + Carve will give you 450 every 60 secs, and 7.5 dps potency increase.

Clemency would like a word.

Clemency is a heal, it doesnt reduce damage, it doesnt make you tankier.

[shao32]

snip

grit potendy huh? yes if we are speaking about grit yess bloodspiller is a dps gain, sorry for miss read that, but playing on grit is a overall waste of dps so the gain of TBN there is useless.

[Nivarea]

TBN when it breaks gives you much more DPS than that 2400 mana.
Bloodspiller is 475 potency alone, even Carve and spit + da doesnt give that much potency, DA only gives 140 potency to each ability and it costs you same amount of mp.

Im using it outside of tankbusters all the time and i keep breaking it.
And none of the tanks has one ability that could save them outside of their tank stance, if they have its on super high cooldown and its being rarely used just like living death for drk.
Its a weak supporting ability, but it wasnt mean to be strong, it has low cd, decent amount of health for yourself and it bring more dps to the table.

And yes DRK is far more challenging to play than other two tanks, thats not a secret, but you play it anyway so i guess its more involving to play and its not that bad and boring, it could be rewarding.
As a DRK i love how at deltascape i believe v4 i was tanking the boss and managed to live with 2% of health, when the Pally just died next to me from that aoe tank buster.

Well, I wasn't so clear on my post, sorry for that, but yeah, TBN breaks somewhat even on the long run (sometimes it's a gain, sometimes it's a loss, but nothing to cry about), I totaly agree with that, numbers can't lie. Of course, assuming it always break, which now happens almost all the time with the 7s change.

But, I was thinking about some exceptions that are still happening. The fact it use blood, a ressource we use to improve our DPS, can lead to some frustrating situations during radi buff windows. There is also the occasions when you are between something like 35~45, meaning you can't Bloodspiller, and a conbination of Salted Earth tics, Blood Weapon or even Bloodspiller 10 BG makes us overcap on blood with TBN. It's unfortunate, but it can happens.

It's not the rule, and I'm not saying we are loosing that much, and actually, it's an interesting mindgame. Like you, I'm all for jobs that are more difficult to play, and that's still what I like about DRK (even if I liked HW one more, but that's an opinion everyone don't have to share ^^). But to work, it must result in a reward, and the actual problem with DRK (which existed in HW but wasn't so glaring) is that the reward is not good enough IMO. We are barely competiting with PLD in terms of DPS, and totally left in the mud defense wise, even if TBN is our redeeming grace as you said, because of its short cooldown and the fact it breaks even, something other Tanks can't say (Inner Beast cost gauge ressource and Tank Stance, Clemency a GCD). TBN is a very interresting ability on paper, but the fact it's so centralizing, making DRK awkward in non-lv70 content, and the fact that the reward is still a bit lacking, is frustrating. It don't need much I think, the improvement on the lenght of the shield was really the best thing they did on DRK during 4.X patches.