The Journey - Is It Still Wanted?

[Jinko]

Hi Jinko,

Well said. What are some examples of types of quest chains that you're referring to? (I've never played those games so it'd be great to document some examples in the hopes that the dev team sees this thread and your post)

I loved all the quests from Chains of Promathea (early days) getting friends together and really tackling the challenges, while being treated to some great Final Fantasy Cinematics and interesting Story that had me engaged till the very end.

I really hope this Garlean Empire / Legatus XIV Story develops into something as dramatic as that, if not exceed that.

Well we already have it to some extent, the Ifrit prequest was pretty huge, required us to run around all over the place killing NM's, go to the strongholds to get the lamp items etc.

So it does seem like Yoshi is heading in that direction.

I know for sure that on 1.19 patch day I had a lot of fun staying up til 5 in the morning running round with other LS members trying to complete the objectives to get into fight hyper Ifrit.
(such a shame the loot system was so broken :P)

Hopefully the moogles prequest is as much fun.

[LuxLex]

I am one of those people who actually enjoys a good grind pt and I think that the journey to level cap should be long and enjoyable with a good deal of content included along the way. This journey should be measured in months, not weeks or ::shudder:: days.

I would agree with you if it wasn't for the 15 abilities only system they are bringing in. With so few abilities they will need to nerf the grind more because it will get really boring.

[SilvertearRen]

I agree with the concept of a journey. Which is why when 2.0 comes out, I intend to roll a new character, a male Miqo'te or a female Roegadyn. I think the issue is that MMORPGs are increasingly becoming more centered on either copy-paste quest content for EXP progression or simply grinding.

What I think we need, is an MMORPG design that should be in the same vein as the traditional PS2 JRPGs that were prevalent at the time. I'm talking about examples like Xenosaga III. The idea is that we should have our character progression be heavily tied to content-heavy main storyline quests - that our character grows with the stories we experience. And that a few of those storyline quests SHOULD require parties. That way, you have a lot of tangible content in a single storyline arc that, with more and more Americans becoming strapped for time in this moribund economy, can be soloed or duoed and still get your money's worth of memorable experiences - and still be able to level up at a reasonable progress.

Here's how I would like to see FFXIV 2.0's level-to-storyline progression become, in the future, in terms of level-relative content:

Levels 1 to 14 - Original 1-48 Storyline Quests (Because there are so few of them!)
Levels 15 to 39 - Expansion #1 (2.0) Storyline Quests
Levels 40 to 50+ - Expansion #2 Storyline Quests

Personally, if you have only an hour a day to play, that would be enough time to do at least one main storyline quest, and that quest should be able to reward you with enough experience to level up one of your classes. And the entire storyline arc should at least offer you the ability to bring a single class close to cap (45-ish). Of course, let's not forget that there are more than one class in this game, and that means you can't really level up all of your classes on the same storyline, which ensures that other means of leveling up remains valid and a worthwhile mode of play.

However, bear in mind that the above is just an example, and that in FFXI, when I first started playing it, Rise of the Zilart and Chains of Promathia existed - and that there were multiple storyline arcs I could do in that game, such as the San d'Oria Conquest missions (I forget exactly, but they were the missions that allowed you to rank up your status in that city-state) and they were generally not considered to be part of the Rise of the Zilart main storyline. And that none of them rewarded experience points upon completion. Ever.

I suppose the main thrust of my statement is that there are not enough memorable stories to participate in in FFXIV, and that in its current state, the graphics seem to actually diminish the impact of those stories. It's more flash than substance, which makes me go "So what?", while in FFXI, I was genuinely awed by the length and depth of the stories that took place, sometimes concurrently, with other expansions' stories.

It's been a year since FFXIV came out, and we have a year or two yet before XIV will see its first true expansion. Yoshi-P has his work cut out for him...


P.S. I still haven't capped a second Class, my only Lv50 class is Lancer. Why? Because there just isn't much to do that will engage me.

Edit - In case some people have a hard time figuring out what I'm trying to say, here: To meet my expectations of an engaging MMORPG that offers a reasonable balance between character progression and main scenario quests, you need a lot of storyline content - about ten to twenty times as much content as XIV currently has. Here's a number: 30+ main storyline quests with EXP rewards that let you level up your character.

[Atoli]

I enjoy the journey, but that does not mean I want lvling speed to be nerfed

Think of it as two wanderers climbing up a mountain.
One takes the very long, compicated and steep route, while the other one takes an easy way.
Obviously the one on the easy way could arrive at the top of the mountain way faster, but because the way IS so easy, he has the time and energy to look around and enjoy all the nice things around him.
For the other one though, just because his journey is longer and harder, it does not necessarily mean he can enjoy it at all.
In the end both will arrive at the top at the same time, but guess who had more fun on his journey..

For everyone who didn't understand this:
We need enough interesting content to make people WANT to stop lvling,
not make lvling so slow and hard that it is a horrible grind which takes months to get to 50

[Rowyne]

I posted my feelings about this in the Reduce Exp thread, but this may have actually been a more relevant place.

Thank you for this post, OP. I feel the journey is something seriously lacking in FFXIV, as well. And the decision by the dev team to expedite leveling in an attempt to disguise this, is a mistake, IMO.

I don't want to see this game turn into another MMO where 'Life Begins At Endgame'.

There is no sense of accomplishment with getting your class to level cap in a matter of days, especially when there is so little end-game content and people stand around, bored, with no goals and nothing to do. The steeper leveling curve was one of the few things I liked about FFXI. Having a level 75 job used to really mean something in that game. It was about the journey, not the destination. I wanted to have that same feeling here.

Yes, they're redesigning the maps in 2.0, which will help with the exploration aspect and feeling of progression. But that doesn't fully address another real problem, something they could work on now - lack of content.

Not just endgame, but leveling content. Where are the leveling options we were promised? Especially quest-based leveling? I love questing in MMOs, and it's something that's really been a glaring oversight in this game. I realize they've been adding quests, but the number and quality of them have been anemic. If we had more of this, the journey would be much more entertaining and fulfilling, and we wouldn't have to worry about so much of the grind, because it's disguised behind something that's fun.

[Davorok]

...This doesn't mean I only want to see solo quests either, part of the problem with the current sidequests is that they provide no challenge, what I would like to see is 3-4 chains of solo content finished off by a party based semi-boss fight.

Yes, that is just the sort of thing we need and will probably get some CoP type missions in 2.0 but I am concerned with what they can offer now which with the limited server capabilities an easy quick fix would be to Chain Levequests. Perhaps even have a LeveQuest Chain end in a Behest?

There are things they could do now. I guess it's just a matter of Human Resources and whether any GuildLeve changes now will still fit in the 2.0 universe.

[Kiara]

I agree with the concept of a journey. Which is why when 2.0 comes out, I intend to roll a new character, a male Miqo'te or a female Roegadyn. I think the issue is that MMORPGs are increasingly becoming more centered on either copy-paste quest content for EXP progression or simply grinding.

What I think we need, is an MMORPG design that should be in the same vein as the traditional PS2 JRPGs that were prevalent at the time. I'm talking about examples like Xenosaga III. The idea is that we should have our character progression be heavily tied to content-heavy main storyline quests - that our character grows with the stories we experience. And that a few of those storyline quests SHOULD require parties. That way, you have a lot of tangible content in a single storyline arc that, with more and more Americans becoming strapped for time in this moribund economy, can be soloed or duoed and still get your money's worth of memorable experiences - and still be able to level up at a reasonable progress...

I suppose the main thrust of my statement is that there are not enough memorable stories to participate in in FFXIV, and that in its current state, the graphics seem to actually diminish the impact of those stories. It's more flash than substance, which makes me go "So what?", while in FFXI, I was genuinely awed by the length and depth of the stories that took place, sometimes concurrently, with other expansions' stories.

It's been a year since FFXIV came out, and we have a year or two yet before XIV will see its first true expansion. Yoshi-P has his work cut out for him...


P.S. I still haven't capped a second Class, my only Lv50 class is Lancer. Why? Because there just isn't much to do that will engage me.

Edit - In case some people have a hard time figuring out what I'm trying to say, here: To meet my expectations of an engaging MMORPG that offers a reasonable balance between character progression and main scenario quests, you need a lot of storyline content - about ten to twenty times as much content as XIV currently has. Here's a number: 30+ main storyline quests with EXP rewards that let you level up your character.

Hi Silvertear,

Good thoughts. I also had similar feelings that I posted earlier. I'd definitely love to see EXP growth gained through interesting, engaging Adventures (Missions / Quests) in a meaningful Storyline that was on par or exceeded Chains of Promathea's Story / Cinematics.

It'd be amazing to progress through Final Fantasy XIV via major Story Missions.

But at the same time, I think the amount of resources required would make it unrealistic. One can hope that they be able to do that, but somehow I don't think we'll see any of that.

Hopefully for 2.0 they Cinematics Team / Story Planning / Writers Team will have created enough Story Missions to really blow everyone away. Here's to hoping.

[Kiara]

I posted my feelings about this in the Reduce Exp thread, but this may have actually been a more relevant place.

Thank you for this post, OP. I feel the journey is something seriously lacking in FFXIV, as well. And the decision by the dev team to expedite leveling in an attempt to disguise this, is a mistake, IMO.

I don't want to see this game turn into another MMO where 'Life Begins At Endgame'.

There is no sense of accomplishment with getting your class to level cap in a matter of days, especially when there is so little end-game content and people stand around, bored, with no goals and nothing to do. The steeper leveling curve was one of the few things I liked about FFXI. Having a level 75 job used to really mean something in that game. It was about the journey, not the destination. I wanted to have that same feeling here.

Yes, they're redesigning the maps in 2.0, which will help with the exploration aspect and feeling of progression. But that doesn't fully address another real problem, something they could work on now - lack of content.

Not just endgame, but leveling content. Where are the leveling options we were promised? Especially quest-based leveling? I love questing in MMOs, and it's something that's really been a glaring oversight in this game. I realize they've been adding quests, but the number and quality of them have been anemic. If we had more of this, the journey would be much more entertaining and fulfilling, and we wouldn't have to worry about so much of the grind, because it's disguised behind something that's fun.

Hi Rowyne,

Wonderful post.

I totally agree. I certainly don't want Yoshida-san to slow down leveling to the pace of Original Final Fantasy XI (early days), especially with the emphasis on Multiple Classes in this game vs. FF XI (originally). But at the same time, as you noted, the current pace of EXPing is just too fast. In this mad rush, it seems anyone can get Level 50 in a few days, and it's having the opposite effect that Yoshida-san may have hoped for:

It's magnifying the problem of Lack of Content.

In this current super fast pace to 50, so many people are sitting at Max Level and just trying Ifrit or a Beastmen Stronghold over and over. There's nothing left to do. With 1.20, everyone will rush to Dark Moogle (the 1 new "end game" content for that patch) and have nothing else.

Yoshida-san is in a tough spot, developing 2.0 at the same time (and that's more important than this), but by making EXP so generous and easy to earn, new players and veteran players just completely blow through ALL levels up to 50 so fast, that very few people can even be bothered to try out the various Side Quests in towns, or want to find EXP Camps for various levels before 50.

I would imagine that there could be some interesting, memorable content (and Journeys for many) through areas like Casseiopea Hollow (distinct even with the Copy Paste of the rest of the world), but the current super speed EXP and PL-craze has allowed people to just blow through / ignore most camps on their way to Level 50.

I hope we see some positive changes in 2.0.

[Rutelor]

To the OP: YES!!

More than anything else in this game.

R

[Kikosho]

The single worst argument on the forums "No one is forcing you to XYZ/ABC".

Yes others are forcing you to do certain things against your will ex: if you try to shout in FFXI for a party and you are a lvl 50 rdm with no subs and no refresh you are NOT going to get in any parties ever. You are forced to have subs lvl'd and basic required spells. Of course no one forces you to have them but if you dont' you dont' get the invites.

In ffxiv you are forced to deal with PL's in parties and groups that maximize gains and prefer beastmen/raptors from 30-50.

ffxiv: no one forces you to have sentinel for ifrit but if your whole party does not have sentinel expect to wipe.

ffxiv: no one forces you to use LNC but if you bring 6PGL to ifrit expect to wipe from sear dmg + hate control issues

PGL can fight out of sear and not sure what hate control issues you speak of. It'd be a slower kill regardless since PGL don't have an equivalent to Doomspike II timer wise.