This whole Meta Party thing is hurting me. x_x

[Shurrikhan]

DRG does offer nearly that amount, especially due to how much of BRD's damage is rooted in Crit. Those numbers only increase with both physical ranged hence the year long prevalence of DRG/NIN/BRD/MCH. They all circle buff one another. Granted, BLM is far better off now than it has been in a while. SAM, on the other hand, is borderline useless.

Agreed, which is why I will continue to insist that SAM needs certain small buffs. I just find some of the awkward gimmick raid support ideas others have come up with to this effect (e.g. 15% Slashing), on the assumption that no one will take a job that cannot improve the others' ability to pad their FFlog percentiles, downright scary.

Another factor regarding Meta preference is the inherent safety net. An average BLM offers nothing whereas a comparably average DRG at least increases BRD/MCH's damage. Therefore, it's a safer gamble to take the DRG.

The safety net would technically work in the reverse there, if considering just the piercing damage. Now two players, up from just one, both need to perform to the best of their ability to maximize the job's potential. In reality, it's the Bard/MCH and the DS target especially, but also anyone who stands to benefit from Battle Litany. That's a lot more dependence than simply expecting one DPS to do his DPS correctly. If both could consistently produce the same total DPS (personal and raid combined), and the BLM isn't somehow at higher risk by nature of the fight, then the BLM is technically lower risk; you only need one wholly skilled player to execute all that damage, rather than 3 (DRG, DS-target, Ranged) to 8. There's less interdependence, fewer ways to lose out.

(And it's not like the DRG can continue contributing DS or piercing debuffs (beyond the remainder of the Disembowel duration) while he's dead, either.)

I'd generally assumed that is precisely why the interdependent means of damage tended to be tuned slightly harder: they really are more fragile, and therefore more high risk. Other parts of the meta toolkit may help to mitigate that risk, but that interdependence makes it still very much a part of meta play at the moment.

Now I will agree people overstate just how beneficial meta jobs are. BLM, for instance, is in a pretty strong spot right now. That being said, it's equally disingenuous to claim those utility jobs aren't better because, statistically, they are.

I've never said they aren't. My post just before this pointed out that there is a statistically significant difference.

I've merely said that those far too many of those enforcing the meta are doing so via secondhand knowledge alone, and do not fully understand or are even capable of calculating their actual benefits, whereas those who are thus capable have also been the same ones to prove that the numbers are free to shift within the right conditions towards new optimals.

While it'll take a couple more weeks to really see all that everyone is capable of, best of the best parses are starting to throw the dominance of interdependent contribution methods such as through our meta compositions into question. The difference between 7.5k and 6.8k is really quite a lot for even Piercing, DS, and BL to take on, for instance. Naturally, that gap has been inflated as people will play towards their strengths with non-AoE cards and the like, but at the very least it shows incredibly tight proximity.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

The safety net would technically work in the reverse there, if considering just the piercing damage.

Why are we only considering piercing? I merely used DRG as an example but the logic applies to all utility based jobs. An average Monk is superior to an average BLM on the basis Brotherhood buffs the raid. If the WAR is good, they gain a substantially benefit from Brotherhood. Same can be said of NIN and Trick. While an average NIN may not optimize it's usage, the group still benefits. Selfish DPS jobs only provide damage, thus if they aren't able to clearly separate themselves, they're far less useful.

A death also impacts selfish DPS more as the entirety of their damage comes from themselves.

None of this is to say people should enforce the meta in pugs, but it does remain a safer gamble, depending on the skill of the people you already have.

[Shurrikhan]

Why are we only considering piercing?

Because it's the same parameters you just used in the quote directly above my response. No more than that, no less than that.

whereas a comparably average DRG at least increases BRD/MCH's damage

Selfish DPS jobs only provide damage, thus if they aren't able to clearly separate themselves, they're far less useful.

Fair enough, but this is only to the same degree as a interdependent DPS is able to not only clearly separate themselves through personal DPS, but also apply their buffs at the appropriate times. An indirect contributor has to worry not only about syncing their own skills to other (de)buffs, but also about ensuring their (de)buffs are up at the appropriate times for others' use. Granted, this will tend to be an obvious enough schedule after TA-5 or TA-6, etc., but it is still one greater factor of difficulty.

Yes, an interdependent is less dependent on their own performance to contribute, but this is only really possible if they're less skilled at maximizing their own damage than maximizing others'. The two tend to hang quite closely together. In general it would seem like as long as one's getting their Trick Attack up on time, at least they're contributing that, but I rarely see this occur sufficiently when the Ninja's own dps in insufficient for example.

A death also impacts selfish DPS more as the entirety of their damage comes from themselves.

This is only the case if one died having just finished using their raid debuff, such that their contribution seemingly lingers. Otherwise they're just as useless when dead. By any other perspective, though, they simply applied and/or snapshotted their DPS (direct and indirect) and died, same as any DPS who can contribute only personally.

None of this is to say people should enforce the meta in pugs, but it does remain a safer gamble, depending on the skill of the people you already have.

That last bit's important, though. As it is interdependent, just as a perfect group has more to gain, an imperfect group has more to lose. Most groups aren't equally skilled, member to member, either. And if one really is significantly more skilled than the rest of their group, it can definitely be easier to carry on a more directly contributing class.

I'll agree it's more often than not a safer bet -- even across the majority of group skill levels -- since it tends to also afford additional helpful utilities even beyond DPS, but it's far from something worth considering a universal rule, especially as soon as skill levels within the group itself may differ.

[Remedi]

I think we can all agree that BLM and SAM could use something that makes them stand out as in something only they can do

[Starflake]

I think we can all agree that BLM and SAM could use something that makes them stand out as in something only they can do

You mean like, I don't know, do insane amounts of raw damage like no other class? Well, Samurai should do more at least. BLM, even though it brings no utility, does insane raw damage, so much so that if you subtract rDPS taken and given they sometimes still come out on top and are very close to other DPS overall to the say the least in same percentile categories.

[Guulu]

I'd say current balance is pretty good in terms of raid DPS contribution in an average party, except for RDM and maybe SAM. By average I mean everyone doing their basic and having good uptime but do not optimize the rotation, buff timing for the fight. The imbalance thing right now I feel are utilities that does not directly effect rDPS, like refresh, tactician, mantra, smoke, raise, SiO, DV, PoA, cover. Which make the fight safer and easier to do. I don't know how should SE fix this while keeping the identity of the classes/jobs.

One thing I would like to say is, IMO, classes/jobs should not be balanced around speedkill where every party member is 95+ if not 99 or 100 percentile on fflog. If so, it either means "utility DPS" like NIN/DRG/BRD/MCH are so weak that they won't work unless 4 jobs are brought together PLUS tanks and healers are very good, which apparently doesn't fix the meta situation. Or it can be "selfish DPS" are so broken that you can basically ignore tanks'/healers' DPS and hard carry a team that can't be done with utility DPS, which is likely to make them highly preferred if not demanding in average PUG. The JP DC I'm playing on rn, selfish DPS are and have been better than utility DPS in PUG for clearing since deltascape dropped, because they are less reliant on good players in a party to clear content.

[Remedi]

You mean like, I don't know, do insane amounts of raw damage like no other class? Well, Samurai should do more at least. BLM, even though it brings no utility, does insane raw damage, so much so that if you subtract rDPS taken and given they sometimes still come out on top and are very close to other DPS overall to the say the least in same percentile categories.

Meta comp achieves better dps a DRG with double ranged bring more dmg than a BLM for example so no dmg in any form is not enough, they require something that makes you say that if we had a BLM/SAM we could've done this (insert w/e part of a boss fight) better, atm they don't stand out aside from dmg they have nothing going for them

[RokkuEkkusu]

Developer will always be outsmart by players. Dungeons we have right now is a good example. During players outsmart developer with 2.0 dungeon begin. META group exist is cause player understand class better than developer. That´s it why Developer need to buff/nerf class.
Developer is alway though like this "oh good/cool idea to create a X ability" without realise how powerful it help with clear content. Trick attack was the reason why nin most of time get nerf from tp to damage and developer still having difficult to balance it.

And the fact the Devs want to remove Sneak Attack and keep Trick Attack on Ninja since the beginning of Stormblood says a lot about them wanting Ninjas to fill that part of the role while still putting out some solid DPS.

[SavageCipher]

Let me help you out OP;

As a veteran of MMO's as whole the meta will only be useful for speed running endgame content. You can do just fine with the default or below average classes. Also if you want to know what kind of class will be part of the meta (for funzies)...two things to look out for; Magic Defense + Strong team buffs. I knew the Astro and Dragoon were easy meta choice due to the group buffs alone.

[Gralna]

Maybe a quote from Yoshi from LL translation can put some of the META talks to rest.

Also, there seems to be a trend where players believe they are at a disadvantage when there is a certain job in the raid. There won’t be a major advantage or disadvantage no matter what setup you have. This type of trend gives a negative impression to specific jobs. We would appreciate if the community would stop being swayed by this trend.

So Meta is something made up entirely by the community, with the Devs refusing to acknowledge it and not making any changes that would encourage it.