This whole Meta Party thing is hurting me. x_x

[Veliena]

I think the main issue is how the "meta" is approached by players and the devs.

Meta is used in various ways, and yes it can be considered a speed run tool, it is useful in other situations as well.

For speedrunning, it provides the fastest kills, generally.

For the rest of the community its just a safer bet. You could bring a BLM or SAM and clear, yes. But, a BLM or SAM, for example, would have to preform at say, 85+ percentile. Where you could have simply brought a say, NIN, who, even if performing at say 65 percentile, still provides buffs ect for the group. So, the nin is a safer bet.

The issue then is, how do we fix this? I think the easiest way, is to increase the number of people in a raid from 8 to say, 12.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Battle logs, from the player perspective are accurate; however the developers have all of the battle logs and can see how combat plays out from a coding level, and, therefore, have a more complete picture of the data.

It's quite easy to get around that.

... this makes so little sense it actually hurts. There is no perception with numbers. They are either accurate or they aren't. You can spin this a thousand different ways but it all comes back to that single dichotomy. According to you, the developers have more information than we do, thus the battle logs aren't relaying the whole picture.

None of this disproves the notion that the developers (who created the game) have a greater understanding of the game than players do. Players come up with a different tactic than they anticipated in one raid tier; it does not mean that the players now have a greater collective understanding of how the game works.

See MistakeNot's rebuttal.

We're not talking about Bungie or EA. We're talking about S-E. Yet even still, there are two different kinds of statements: selling the game (this is where lying or stretching the truth) and explaining how an aspect of the game works (this is where Yoshida's comments fall). The developers answered the meta by looking into game data (objective dataset) and gave an opinion based on what they found. This is not a lie or PR. It's forwarding an objective conclusion based on objective datasets.

No, no. You do not get to handwave examples. SE is no less innocent in controversies. Your stance argument hinged on the notion developers always speak the truth. I provided two examples that explicably refute that.

Why do you think Yoshida said what he said? He wants to make it clear the meta is a fiction. Their data and data analysis supports this. Not sure why the message is so hard to understand.

To encourage people not to exclude weaker jobs. As I said, if the developers have "a more complete picture of data," why not release that precise information publicly? Once again, no one will care what Yoshida claims without hard evidence they can promptly scrutinized. The "message" is hard to understand because your entire argument boils down to "Yoshida said so." Even if we took the idea of ACT being unreliable at face value, we have nothing else to go by except his word. Once again, no one will care what Yoshida claims without hard evidence they can prompt scrutinized.

[zuzu-bq]

But, a BLM or SAM, for example, would have to preform at say, 85+ percentile.

Percentiles are not a fix metric but rather comparative.

[Veliena]

Percentiles are not a fix metric but rather comparative.

I know this, just trying to give an example of why people take one over the other. Its not exact or anything.

[Shurrikhan]

I know this, just trying to give an example of why people take one over the other. Its not exact or anything.

But they're also class-comparative. A NIN can hit 100% with less DPS than the 7.4k BLM in their O6S party, for example, and that BLM still won't necessarily be even 98%.

The unsupportive DPS would have to do as much personal damage as the other's personal and indirect damage contribution combined, but none of that is going to be reflected directly in their fflogs parses.

[Kitfox]

... this makes so little sense it actually hurts. There is no perception with numbers. They are either accurate or they aren't. You can spin this a thousand different ways but it all comes back to that single dichotomy. According to you, the developers have more information than we do, thus the battle logs aren't relaying the whole picture.
...
Even if we took the idea of ACT being unreliable at face value, we have nothing else to go by except his word. Once again, no one will care what Yoshida claims without hard evidence they can prompt scrutinized.

For solo numbers ACT/fflogs are 99.X% accurate, but for party contributions they're not as perfect because battle logs don't record dot damage and the server only sends a combined tick in the data packet, so it's impossible to tell the exact damage each dot did or whose it was, what crit/dh and what didn't. We also know from pvp that SE does have their own damage calculation system, so it's fair to assume that they have the more complete data.

It's questionable if they know how all the possible party setups interact with each other though, as there's some evidence pointing towards physical ranged classes being possibly underestimated (SSS dummy numbers). It's also possible that the numbers are skewed on purpose because of some undisclosed design philosophy. We just really don't know.

[Silver_Blade]

Saying there is no meta is just a flatout lie.
Some classes are inferior in terms of DPS and that is a fact.
Just like taking a SCH + WHM and excluding AST is a dps loss.
If a class does less dps it needs a utility buff it is a simple fact and SE is ignoring this concept.
Why bring a BLM when a drg brings more effective DPS.
Why make a party without a NIN when the groups dps will be lower without one?
Meta sucks and is ruining raiding. People have to abandon classes they like for ones that preform and that makes the game unfun and drives people away.

[Shurrikhan]

Why bring a BLM when a drg brings more effective DPS.

Unless a 5% piercing buff, a 15% crit buff up for 8.33% of the time, and a 5% damage buff up for 16.67% up from the time can contribute 750+ DPS by themselves atop, a DRG is no longer necessarily going to be more efficient than an equally skilled BLM.

Why make a party without a NIN when the groups dps will be lower without one?

That's not inherently the case at all. If another class can do more than the NIN's damage + the damage contributed by Trick Attack, and there are no significant damage-saving uses of Shadewalker or Smokescreen, then the group's DPS will be higher with that class instead of the NIN.

Meta sucks and is ruining raiding. People have to abandon classes they like for ones that preform and that makes the game unfun and drives people away.

Correction: people mistaking a slight and ever shifting balance of the numbers as a fixed rule suck and ruin raiding. Those who have the guts to acknowledge the actual math and test their job's potential are still alive and going strong in contradiction of any former "meta", and will work to shape what's new for their skill levels in the fights they're experimenting in.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

For solo numbers ACT/fflogs are 99.X% accurate, but for party contributions they're not as perfect because battle logs don't record dot damage and the server only sends a combined tick in the data packet, so it's impossible to tell the exact damage each dot did or whose it was, what crit/dh and what didn't. We also know from pvp that SE does have their own damage calculation system, so it's fair to assume that they have the more complete data.

It's questionable if they know how all the possible party setups interact with each other though, as there's some evidence pointing towards physical ranged classes being possibly underestimated (SSS dummy numbers). It's also possible that the numbers are skewed on purpose because of some undisclosed design philosophy. We just really don't know.

I am aware, though ACT remains incredibly close in how it estimates DoT damage. Regardless, the person I quoted has claimed the meta simply doesn't exist. This inherently implies jobs like DRG and NIN—known for their staggeringly high utility buffs—do not actually provide more, all because Yoshida used broad terms in asserting no one job holds a "major advantage," which, itself, is somewhat subjective due to interpretation. If we are to believe they have data that directly contradicts the meta, it's utterly idiotic on their part not to release this information as nothing Yoshida says will have any impact over ACT and FFlogs.

Unless a 5% piercing buff, a 15% crit buff up for 8.33% of the time, and a 5% damage buff up for 16.67% up from the time can contribute 750+ DPS by themselves atop, a DRG is no longer necessarily going to be more efficient than an equally skilled BLM.

DRG does offer nearly that amount, especially due to how much of BRD's damage is rooted in Crit. Those numbers only increase with both physical ranged hence the year long prevalence of DRG/NIN/BRD/MCH. They all circle buff one another. Granted, BLM is far better off now than it has been in a while. SAM, on the other hand, is borderline useless.

Another factor regarding Meta preference is the inherent safety net. An average BLM offers nothing whereas a comparably average DRG at least increases BRD/MCH's damage. Therefore, it's a safer gamble to take the DRG.

Now I will agree people overstate just how beneficial meta jobs are. BLM, for instance, is in a pretty strong spot right now. That being said, it's equally disingenuous to claim those utility jobs aren't better because, statistically, they are.

[zuzu-bq]

Snip

WHM vs AST raid damage contribuition is dependant on RNG and encounter length, WHM's personal was elavated to higher scales since Stormblood's launch and their presence with bulk heals gives SCH more space to DPS. This comparison isn't flat out or easy to make. But in general, yes AST should be better. If you watch speedruns you'll see they'll keep wiping on purpose until they get good card draws to meet a certain time threshold they are aiming for. The minimum usually being the enough to beat WHM's damage contribuition.

Unless you've two Physical Ranged, Disembowel isn't that strong nowadays. So bringing a BLM or any other caster is fair and not a bad choice since its buffs. Just not the best choice. Bringing a caster when you don't have a DRG for example is a good choice to make your party damage better even though you're not doing the best possible combo.

MNK's rdps is very close to NIN nowadays. People just percieve NIN as better because they're used to it since basically NIN's launch and Trick makes them feel better than Brotherhood does.