This whole Meta Party thing is hurting me. x_x

[Shiroe]

drg, nin and brd are mostly wanted in pfs, not because they are meta, but cause they buff the other players..


if meta jobs didnt buff others like those do, they'd be way less desired

sure, rdm is still desired in prog and brd also for mp song etc. , desired jobs ofc exist, for reasons other than buffing dps

but the real reason why so many want the known "meta" jobs atm, is like mentioned before, due to them bufing others personal (fflogs) dps ...lol..

(if blm and sam where meta, due to high dps, ofc theyd be wanted in parties. ., but never as much as nin, drg or brd/ mch atm, cause they don't buff others dps like drg & co)

[whiskeybravo]

He wants to make it clear the meta is a fiction.

You lost me here. They also thought all tanks were going to start stacking tenacity because it was such a "powerful" stat. They also thought Dark Knight and Samurai were fine (at least until recently).

You're argument actually reminds me a lot of pollsters. You know, when they claim things like "Americans believe in _____", but they actually only surveyed like a 1000 people.

So we base our info off only a fraction of data made available by players volunteering it, while SE has access to everyone's data (we suppose).

None of this disproves the notion that the developers (who created the game) have a greater understanding of the game than players do.

This statement is vague af. I don't think anyone would deny they have a great understanding of the coding, networking, technical capabilities/limitations, etc. of their game. That doesn't mean they're all capable of competing with a world first group. So you're actually talking about 2 different things: Dev's knowledge of how the game operates and player's knowledge of how to get the most out of it. One is not required for the other.

This is factually incorrect. When you create something, you know how the minutiae fit together, how the different element interacts together, you know it better than any fan could ever do.

Really? So, guys like Nikola Tesla never existed? Interesting..

[zuzu-bq]

Why do you think Yoshida said what he said? He wants to make it clear the meta is a fiction. Their data and data analysis supports this. Not sure why the message is so hard to understand.

He admittedly said that there are discrepancies between jobs but they're doing their best to make them small (and doing a good job on it since SB's launch). Though the community won't percieve them as small because of how they compare eachother on fflogs and how percentiles and shoving seconds off a kill work and most importantly, how good it feels to recieve other job's buffs during a run.

[Tizzy_Tormentor]

I have seen speed runs, the silly and irrelevant concept that it is.

I seriously hope you are just trying to put down players who enjoy the excitement of beating their old times or trying to do better in fights (as sad as that already is) because calling speedrunning a "silly and irrelevant concept" is pretty insulting.

You know there are entire charities and events based around speedrunning? You know that events like these have gone on to make money that will save peoples lives? You know that are many people who derive enjoyment from watching people speedrun?

I really hope you aren't calling that irrelevant.

[Veliena]

I seriously hope you are just trying to put down players who enjoy the excitement of beating their old times or trying to do better in fights (as sad as that already is) because calling speedrunning a "silly and irrelevant concept" is pretty insulting.

You know there are entire charities and events based around speedrunning? You know that events like these have gone on to make money that will save peoples lives? You know that are many people who derive enjoyment from watching people speedrun?

I really hope you aren't calling that irrelevant.

Compairing speedrunning mario for money to help fight cancer to a raid in an mmo is not a good comparison no matter how you do it.

[Tizzy_Tormentor]

Compairing speedrunning mario for money to help fight cancer to a raid in an mmo is not a good comparison no matter how you do it.

I will admit, its a bit of a shaky comparison, but saying the concept of speedrunning is "silly and irrelevant" is rather pompous considering there are many people who enjoy it and its done some good.

Even in this game, speedkills are an enjoyable way to play, it can be fun to break your own records, you don't have to enjoy speedkilling, but its not entirely fair to call it "irrelevant" because of that.

[Shurrikhan]

snip

There's too much wrong here to go bit by bit, but let's just start with this one.

It should be obvious that player understanding would quickly overwhelm developer understanding the very moment developers chose to play-test it themselves to determine likely results, rather than appropriately tuning for potentially endless simulations. That varying gear, compositions, openers, strategies, and syncs were all compressed merely into multiple samples of one setup per fight should be a brightly flashing alarm.

As for any understanding of the basics of their system -- one need look no further than Ninja and the original Dragoon and Monk builds. Hopefully they've learned a lot since then. But those each required catching up to the players' deeper understanding of the advantages and disadvantages of each toolkit, noted in detail within a week of the game and later the job's release.

[MistakeNot]

This is factually incorrect. When you create something, you know how the minutiae fit together, how the different element interacts together, you know it better than any fan could ever do. Sure, I'll give you that fans can come up with solid understandings, present something new, but that never, ever replicates a creator's understanding.

Wrong. Just because you have built something does not mean you know how it will behave in all circumstances. To know that you do not need to know how it is constructed - you need to test it, analyze the test results, do more tests, etc.
WIth that you can gain a far more complete knowledge of behaviour than the creator had.

I could for example build a model aircraft. Having built it will I automatically know its maximum speed, or its maximum range? No, of course not. To know those it is not enough to know how it is constructed. You need to either do a lot of theoretical calculations or a lot of testing - and those can be done equally well by people other than the creator.

[Tsilyi]

I have seen speed runs, the silly and irrelevant concept that it is. But I have seen it. Would you like to tell me what other things you know for a certainty that I haven't seen?

Can't have a discussion with someone who simply dismisses or outright insults any information brought to them because it doesn't suit their own argument. The fact remains that speedruns are just one example of players knowing a game better than or at least as well as the developers. We have brought up incidents and information that add to our case while sadly you have simply repeated the same "developers know more than any player/can do no wrong" refrain. I was willing to speak to you because you were originally being respectful but the discussion has devolved to outright insults and that is simply not something worth participating in.

[Sawamura]

Developer will always be outsmart by players. Dungeons we have right now is a good example. During players outsmart developer with 2.0 dungeon begin. META group exist is cause player understand class better than developer. That´s it why Developer need to buff/nerf class.
Developer is alway though like this "oh good/cool idea to create a X ability" without realise how powerful it help with clear content. Trick attack was the reason why nin most of time get nerf from tp to damage and developer still having difficult to balance it.