4.2 Palladin - more to play as dps than ever ? Why say it's tank then...

[Quor]

Your answers are more like 'passive tanking' rather than active tanking like before. But i understand this is normal for this game, so I have to adapt. Thank you guys fo ryoru answers.

As PLD on v5s and v6s at least, I'm finding that I use Intervention on the MT quite a bit. Tank busters in both fights hurt quite a lot, so a timely Intervention goes a long way. It's not really that different from hitting Sheltron for yourself instead.

[Claire_Pendragon]

The only thing that PLD loses as MT, is covering the other tank. (And loses shield swipe as OT when not covering, which is a loss in DPS and threat, but WAR loses out on Vengeance counter attack potency. DRK of course loses nothing in the OT spot.)

Even if you were to MT as PLD, you would still have the WAR open, for maximum threat, and then voke off them, and continue on in Sword Oath.
(WAR starting in Defiance, unchains, to remove damage penalty, tomahawks, and equilibriums, going into eye combo for DPS, Thrill of battle to increase max HP, DPS stance, and DPS away. They could use an inner beast if they want to start out with, so they can upheaval with thrill/defiance, or onslaught for the massive threat jump, then FC the rest of the IR window. Either way, they will use IR/Onslaught for DPS, and Onslaught for gap closing, which is like a shield lob every so often.)

Which btw, MTing as PLD is fine in O5S.
In O6S, the MT takes more Tank Busters, and the OT takes more auto attack dmg.
PLD handles auto attack damage (even more so magical than WAR, and more so than DRK) better, so you would want the PLD as OT, and so they can soak the tornados with Hallowed Ground, and help mitigate with Cover. (Which again, works best as OT) But DRK handles the TBs better than PLD. (and can be equal to WAR if WAR is willing to sacrifice some DPS, otherwise its practically the same as PLD due to being magical TBs)
You wouldnt need to tank swap with cover, that alone saves them from a TB, giving them just enough time to get a mitigation off CD.

In O7S, I feel PLD is a better MT than DRK, also partly because of the adds, and the amounts of physical dmg.
(Though WAR and PLD can be interchangeable there just fine, WAR would have the best snap aggro for adds.)

Some people are saying DRK is better for threat, but part of me thinks they dont really play DRK, as its the lowest in total threat. And its "snap" threat comes at too great a cost to DPS, so I disagree with DRKs being the better opener over PLD. (Then again, our PLD never really used Rage of Halone, until our DPS out geared them, then they had to do a round of RoH, where as DRK always had to do it, due to a lack of any real burst options. Though maybe 1 in 5 or 1 in 6 pulls, the BRDs inability to use diversion and lucky crits, lead to the BRD dying at the start, which we rest and went on like nothing happened, until the rest of the DPS were more geared than the PLD, to which like I said, he had to use RoH for a short bit)

But as a word of advice as a PLD OT.
Use cover to help the MT keep CDs ready, plan it out, so you take a TB with it, unless someone needs it to avoid falling off in O5S, or to help a caster survive bleed/pushback dmg in O7S.
Focus on using your shields/reprisal to lower damage the raid takes, and the MT will focus on lowering dmg on themselves.
You keep the party healthy as OT. You still have things to mitigate rather often.

The only reason you would ever be Ot as PLD, is because a DPS WAR WILL out threat you, even if lower in gear level.
They pop threat moves more often than you, and if they arent shirking you, will surpass you.
Dont worry about DRKs, they cant ever catch up to you, 100% impossible, unless you're doing something HORRIBLY wrong. (None of their DPS moves have threat attached like you do.)

a drk only has to use a single powerslash combo, which doesn't affect their dps rotation at all.

DRK using power slash combo is losing out on almost 2 GCDs worth of damage... thats like switching to sword oath twice... (Unless you mean DA+PS, then thats 3 GCDs worth of dmg, for the threat of a hard slash in grit added.)

EDIT: There's some issues with PLDs or DRKs starting as the opening MT and not using threat combos, pretty much requires DPS who offer raid utility, as they usually generate less threat, and with a NIN, offers threat control, and not jobs like BLM or SAM, who just pump out crazy numbers. More so SAM, as they only have diversion, and even with voke/shirk, the best SAM can easily catch a pure DPS WAR, with diversion on CD, if they make the smallest mistake. You'll have to adjust based on each party, which is why its better to have a raid group, rather than doing pugs.

EDIT #2: DRK has always been the worst threat generator of the 3 tanks, when maximizing DPS. In HW, it was considered 100% required to have a NIN, in order to allow DRK to MT and hold hate, while doing more DPS than a PLD.
If you did not have a NIN, and the DRK had to use power slash multiple times, to make up for it, a PLD would do more DPS than a DRK, and you're better off with a PLD, and no one wanted PLD either. (except A12S, as it was harder to survive the TBs)
In 4.0, all tanks generate more threat, and shirk allows for more DPS uptime, less threat combos. But WAR and PLD are still unique in that their maximum DPS rotations require they use actions with threat, and DRK doesnt.
Even though PLD and WAR use different resources now, making the argument DRK lost resources to use threat, still stand, because DRK now loses 2 resources.
The best DRK will do almost the same DPS as a PLD or a DRK, but at the cost of less threat. But most DRKs will do slightly lesser DPS than a PLD or Tank, as they also have to sacrifice DPS for mitigation. (unless they do the bare minimum, and lose no DPS, but then have less mitigation than the other tanks)

DRK is all about sacrificing Threat, DPS, or Mitigation, to try and equal the other tanks. But it's unable to do 2 of them equally. Only one. (Technically it can out threat a PLD if it spamed DA+powerslash, but equal a WAR, and of course do no DPS. It can mitigate almost as much damage as a PLD if it used TBN every time its up, rather than on TBs, knowing when it will break, of course, losing DPS, so on, so forth.)
DRKs only saving grace, is that is takes a tiny bit less damage from magical tank busters through a long fight, but a lot more dmg from cleaves/auto attacks the rest of that same fight.

[aqskerorokero]

Yeah....why....I m ok to be an average damage tank....

[Thela]

I alway thought pld was the MT thats the only reason why i started playing Pld...i didnt know pld was OT/DPS...i didnt know war was MT in this game...guess a little residue of FF11 meta of PLD (MT) still in me...guess ill pick up war and relearn myself

It used to be like this, but its no longer the case for reasons already stated in this thread. In order to maximize the damage of both tanks, PLD is best in the OT role. Surely you can still MT if you want to but its not optimal damage wise.

[RLofOBFL]

PLD does lose the most when pulling. Halone Combo does significantly less damage than RA(120 potency), where Power Slash combo does 20 less potency, plus 70 bc half a DA of MP, and another 140 potency if you use DA PS instead of normal. But it also delays when PLD puts up its DOT by 3 tics for another 180 potency, as well as the actual oath swapping so another 160 to 380 depending on what GCD you end on in the fight. And on top of all of that you delay your FoF or Req by 4 GCDs where BW is popped at the same time no matter what.

So DRK loses 230 potency and PLD loses 460 to
700 just based off raw potency, not including what raid buffs are missed due to PLD delaying its opener.

[Simos]

So how do you get aggro from a add on sword oath ? EG> octupus appears or dalalumas ... how can u get good hate in sword oath so you dont lose dps ?

[Claire_Pendragon]

PLD does lose the most when pulling. Halone Combo does significantly less damage than RA(120 potency), where Power Slash combo does 20 less potency, plus 70 bc half a DA of MP, and another 140 potency if you use DA PS instead of normal. But it also delays when PLD puts up its DOT by 3 tics for another 180 potency, as well as the actual oath swapping so another 160 to 380 depending on what GCD you end on in the fight. And on top of all of that you delay your FoF or Req by 4 GCDs where BW is popped at the same time no matter what.

So DRK loses 230 potency and PLD loses 460 to
700 just based off raw potency, not including what raid buffs are missed due to PLD delaying its opener.

PLD has more burst than DRK, so if the fight has downtime, PLD easily catches back up, along with having a possible shield swipe proc, which can be popped at the very start. Not starting the fight with PLD means they dont put shield swipe on CD. (Thats also extra threat, and also why PLD doesnt have to use rage of halone in every group comp. and in any comp u have a DRK trying to MT, u want a NIN, so if ur gonna have a NIN, PLD doesnt need to do a RoH combo.)
You cant mention pushing GCDs back on PLD w/o mentioning pushing back CDs on DRK, including Blood Weapon, which cant be done in tank stance. This also includes holding off on CnS, Salted Earth, Plundge, unless of course u want them done under the effect of grit instead.

The threat gain of DRKs opener is barely better than PLD, and is quickly surpassed by the DPS in a short time, where as a PLD continues to gain more threat as time goes on, including higher DPS in fights with downtime.
But of course, calculate a swipe at the start from bulwark, and thats extra threat/100 potency.
You can literally hold hate from swipe+lob alone, u dont need to RoH...
IDK why RoH is even being brought up.

If you're having trouble with threat, then something else is wrong, or you got unlucky with group composition somehow. (such as not having a WAR to open with)

Remember, DRKs equal a PLD on dummies, but are surpassed by PLDs in DPS on actual fights.
Which only happens because of little things adding up, such as down time.

Of course, the amount of difference this all makes is pretty small and trivial, but in the end, the "effective" threat gain and or DPS gain/loss is going to be minimal either way, when talking about an opener, in comparison to the whole fight.

So how do you get aggro from a add on sword oath ? EG> octupus appears or dalalumas ... how can u get good hate in sword oath so you dont lose dps ?

Pretty much the same as all the tanks who have to snap aggro. (Not that Im suggesting u be in sword oath for that.) If anything, thats an argument as to why PLD would be better off MT for O7S, since that would minimize stance dancing.

Pretty much all our tanks have had to use a threat combo out of stance, or a ranged in stance, to grab adds in savage content.

[Campi]

OT or MT doesn't matter. The Rotation will still be the same.

A PLD just don't pull, the Rest is up the Group and their Strat.

[Faeon]

Yup, I wish people would just stop the MT / OT role, they are both tanks, in a DPS orientated game. So as many have said you can do it either way up to the group itself. But if you think about it yourself you can understand why a WAR pulls, their threat modifier is higher than a PLD, plus he does not take any penalty while in his Tank stance when he pops unchained. He can then swap to deliverance and spam his FC. It is never a must, it is just the meta mindset which EU/NA are obsessed about, if you want to start, then start just discuss it with your group and decide how you wish to-do the current raid turn etc. It's simple really.

[gizmo355gdas]

Im just wondering ppl who make threads like this do they even do savage...this is how this game works every class needs to dps...the best combo in the world is a tank in tank stance trying hard to dps lol with a zero dps healer cuz im just here to heal thats my JOB <3