Dark Arts Bloodspiller

[Xan_Kriegor]

Regarding potency numbers only, I do agree with you guys. DA adds 140 potency for both Soul Eater and Bloodspiller (without Grit). However, what about the real damage you gain with DA?

I do not know exactly how FFXIV's formulas work, but I am thinking with just simple math. Potency acts like a base for our damage that can be multiplified by buffs, gear, debuffs, CH, DH, etc. So if DA would add 140 potency for both skills we should prioritize to use it in our skill with the highest base potency (Bloodspiller). This way we will have a larger number (540 of potency instead of 440) that will be more affected for the multiplification factors and will result in a larger dps gain when synced with raid buffs like Trick Attack, Littany and Chain Strategem.

[Aana]

Regarding potency numbers only, I do agree with you guys. DA adds 140 potency for both Soul Eater and Bloodspiller (without Grit). However, what about the real damage you gain with DA?

I do not know exactly how FFXIV's formulas work, but I am thinking with just simple math. Potency acts like a base for our damage that can be multiplified by buffs, gear, debuffs, CH, DH, etc. So if DA would add 140 potency for both skills we should prioritize to use it in our skill with the highest base potency (Bloodspiller). This way we will have a larger number (540 of potency instead of 440) that will be more affected for the multiplification factors and will result in a larger dps gain when synced with raid buffs like Trick Attack, Littany and Chain Strategem.

Youre on the right track but stepped off at the last step. Potency can be thought of as the 'base' amount of damage which is multiplied by Weapond damage, Str, Det, Ten, can crit/DH, etc using some formula junk. With that in mind every point of potency translates to X damage. Lets say (for example) that 1 potency after going through the math blender becomes 10 damage. So a 300 potency skill would do 3,000 damage. 140 potency would do 1,400 damage. Etc.

So every use of DA (for combos that add 140 pot) will add 1400 damage. If you use that on BS (out of grit), it will also add 1400 damage.

Hard slash: 1500
Syphon Strike: 2500+1400
SE: 3000+1400
BS: 4000+1400

Lets say you have enough MP to do ONE DA during a full SE combo+BS (out of grit). So your doing SE combo+BS. Base potency for the entire 4 GCD set is 150+250+300+400=1100 potency. Gear math blender=11,000 real damage. Now add in DA.

Put it on BS (strongest action)
150+250+300+(400+140)=1240 potency=12,400 'real' damage

Put it on weakest action (syphon)
150+(250+140)+300+400=1240 potency=12,400 'real' damage

You multiply ALL potency by the same amount based on gear etc. So it doesn't matter where the potency is added. 140 potenct is always the same amount. This is why in grit, DA BS adds 175 potency, but only 140 on combos or non-grit BS. Carve and spit DA adds 150 potency.

So you should always use DA on Crit BS 1st and foremost because it adds 175 potency, not because the combined potency of BS+DA is higher, but the DA itself is higher. Then next on C&S because its +150 potency. Then if none of those are up, use it on a regular combo or non-grit BS for 140 potency.

Potency always has the same value so just get the most potency you can from the MP on DA. The combined action+DA potency doesn't matter, just the DA portion itself.

[RLofOBFL]

Buffs in this game are multiplicative. So I did some questionable math for Direct Hit Crits of SE vs BS with meta comp. If you land DA SE within the buffs it's around 1098 potency but if you land DA BS it's 1348 potency. So the 100 potency difference becomes 250(ish). I included Darkside's initial 20% damage as well.

Basically C&S > BS > SE> SS.

[Aana]

Buffs in this game are multiplicative. So I did some questionable math for Direct Hit Crits of SE vs BS with meta comp. If you land DA SE within the buffs it's around 1098 potency but if you land DA BS it's 1348 potency. So the 100 potency difference becomes 250(ish). I included Darkside's initial 20% damage as well.

Basically C&S > BS > SE> SS.

They are multiplicative, and therefore associative. It doesn't matter what order you stack everything up in.

2x5x3 is the same as 5x2x3. 2+5+3=5+3+2.

Put another way in Drk language
150+250+300+(400+140)=1240
150+(250+140)+300+400=1240
150+250+300+(400+140)=1240
They all equal 1240 potency.

Whatever gear you have then multiplies that 1240 potency to the exact same amount of damage.

As long as a DA bonus is 140 potency, its the EXACT same as any other action that also gives 140 potency. There is no secret advantage in using DA on Soul eater instead of Syphon strike. Crits/DH don't matter either. A crit adds 45% damage. A DH adds 25% damage. 140 potency will always add the same % of damage regardless of the size of the base potency of the action you attach it to.

[Mycow8me]

Your wording can confuse someone in that crit doesn't matter when it does. Criting with Dark arts will add additional critical damage, same with direct and even more so on a direct crit. This is why it feels bad when you use dark arts on say a souleater but it doesn't crit, the siphon strike you didn't use dark arts on before it DID crit though and you lost a chance at more damage. Hence the whole buhuhuhhhh dark arts crits pls SE.

[Rathael]

Aana has the right of it, I believe. Provided the base potency is additive with the dark arts potency bonus, it is irrelevant what you multiply through. The additional damage provided by dark arts will always be the same.

If you crit with bloodspiller compared to a syphon strike crit, the additional damage from dark arts is still the same. No matter how many different buffs or stats you have, the extra damage from dark arts is the same whichever ability you use. The two potencies are treated separately.

For there to be a difference, there would need to be a second variable value that changes depending on which ability you use. Crit damage is a constant multiplier, no matter how high.

[Mycow8me]

The additional potency will always be the same, the additional damage will not for criticals, directs, and direct crits. You add 140 potency you add that much worth of damage. You critical, you add 140 potency worth of damage and 140 potency worth of critical damage.

If you dark arts a souleater but it doesn't crit, you basically only got the 140 extra potency worth of damage. If you had used dark arts on the syphon strike that did critical before it though, you would have also received 140 potency worth of critical damage alongside the 140 potency worth of damage dark arts normally brings.

I don't know how to explain it any better.

[TouchandFeel]

snip

What you are saying versus what Aana is saying are two completely different things.

Yes, the added potency from DAing an attack will factor into the extra damage provided if that attack is a crit/dh/dh+crit.
This is commonsense and nobody is arguing against that.

What Aana is talking about, and is correct in, is that the additional damage provided by a DA is the same across the different abilities in which DA just adds a flat +140 potency, whether or not they are crits/dh/etc. as long as they are being compared in the same state.
The additional damage provided from a DA is the same between a regular DAed SE and a regular non-Grit DAed BS.
The additional damage provided from a DA is the same between a crit/dh/etc. DAed SE and a crit/dh/etc. non-Grit DAed BS.

That is what is meant by "it doesn't matter if the attack is a crit or not". The relative additional damage provided by a DA is a flat value across SS, SE, BS. There is no really "better" one from an additional damage perspective to use your DA on. The only thing that results in any sort of priority is additional factors such as the miserly self-heal from SE or the Grit bonus to BS.

Personally, the fact that this is such a wash and the difference or reasons to choose one ability over another to DA is virtually non-existent is a huge problem with the design of DRK and makes DA more monotonous and "spammy" feeling as an ability, as well as just making the job feel overall less fun due to a lack of choice and potential strategy.

[Rathael]

I'll try with maths.

given that:
x = weapon damage. Constant. This is for clarity and arguments sake, since it could be included in 'm'
m = some (multiplicative) multipliers, whatever you want, temporary or permanent. Constant in any given isolated situation depending on your buffs.
c = crit damage multiplier, just for arguments sake. Constant value given by stats.

DA Syphon Strike: (250x + 140x)mc = 250mcx + 140mcx
DA Bloodspiller: (400x + 140x)mc = 400mcx + 140mcx

the "140mcx" is the same regardless. This is the bonus damage provided by Dark Arts. You can see the "c" component is also present and constant regardless. The total damage of Bloodspiller will be much higher on a crit, even moreso with crit multiplier, but the part of that damage that is increased by Dark arts would be an identical increase if used with Syphon Strike.

[Aana]

Your wording can confuse someone in that crit doesn't matter when it does. Criting with Dark arts will add additional critical damage, same with direct and even more so on a direct crit. This is why it feels bad when you use dark arts on say a souleater but it doesn't crit, the siphon strike you didn't use dark arts on before it DID crit though and you lost a chance at more damage. Hence the whole buhuhuhhhh dark arts crits pls SE.

It feels bad to see your BS crit and you DA a syphon, but you cant hindsight an ability RNG crit. There is just as much chance to crit the syphon strike that you skipped DA on. But you still lost the same 'crit damage' from the DA regardless of which one crit. 140 potency that crits (+45% damage)will be 203 potency of damage DA added. It doesn't matter which action you add that too. SE, BS, Syphon will all get 140 pot from DA or 203 pot from DA if it crits. Crits/DH don't have ANY bearing on when you should use DA.

Theres a common misconception that critting the higher potency action somehow makes DA better to use on it. All it does is 'feel' better because we like seeing big numbers, but you aren't actually doing more damage. Feelings do not a parse make.