Revelations from Patch 4.2

[Lauront]

Take away the WOL, and the city-states would be engaged in a futile, never-ending cycle of primal summoning with the beast tribes, when not summoning primals themselves. One can try - conveniently - focus on Garlemald but it at least has effective means of nullifying the Eikons in the absence of some deus ex machina.

Yes, I can blame them. I can blame the one that perpetuate that racism and institutionalize it in their society, namely the Optimates faction and whatever other individuals faciliate it. I don't care how much they like to play the victim. I'm not going to try to "understand" where their racism is coming from. And I applaud the ones that don't try justifying their nation's current warlike, authoritarian tendancies, that aren't arrogant wankers towards everyone that isn't them.

Oh boy, an SJW.

Might as well argue with a lead-coated brick wall, at least they come without the long, rambling, sanctimonious polemics.

The irony is strong regarding the bolded.

[Lauront]

We've seen both leaders getting Tempered by Primals and the Twelve being summoned. Nael is what happened when Bahamut tempered a Legatus (and Bahamut has the most terrifying version of tempering we've seen yet). The Twelve were what Loiusoix essentially summoned to try to keep Bahamut back... and they failed! And then all of Eorzea summoned the Phoenix which got tempered by Bahamut... So whatever Eorzeans think of their gods... their manifestations are weaker then Bahamut. Which isn't saying much. That's probably true of all the primals we've met except maybe the Warring Triad.

As far as I can tell, the Eorzeans are not against religious observations by the beats tribes. Just the various religious sects which summon primals which often times are the people in power over the majority of the beast tribe. Both the Vanu Vanu, the Sylphs and the Ananta (and probably the Kojin) worship the same deities no matter if they summon them or not. It's just that one faction of the tribe thinks that the primal version of their diety is a false or wrong version of the god(dess) and refuse to think their gods would not let them chose to worship them. Heck, Rahmu flat out refuses to temper slyphs unless they actually want him to temper them or not. And for that matter, we've actually seen about as many primals who haven't tempered people on-screen as those that have. And the degrees of tempering varies a lot between primals; Ifrit's and Leviathon's are super obvious, Bahamut's tempering of Nael was never noticed.

As for dealing with summoned primals without the WoL... this is what people did from the time Midgaurdsormr downed the Agrius until 1.0 started (and even a little after that, so... 15 years or so?). It's not that it can't be done, it's that the casualty rate is crazy high.

So basically, they're not against religious observances, as long as there isn't an actual god involved? I also suspect the primals/eikons vary in their intelligence, with the likes of Sophia and Bahamut being significantly more tactical in their thinking. It could be a reflection of the beings that worship them, I suppose. Even in the case of a more "benevolent" primal like Ramuh, you still have significant numbers of his children being corrupted and I guess capable of summoning a corrupted version of the primal. That is, assuming what the Ananta say is actually true. It could be that the primal as such does not really vary based on the summoner's disposition. Perhaps not everything we're told is a primal is actually one.

[Berethos]

As for Pureblood Garleans being racist? Can you blame them, given that they've been persecuted for much of their history and have only been able to claw their way to relevance as a direct result of increasing their power and influence? Why wouldn't they see outsiders as 'savages' when 'savages' are responsible for pushing them out of fertile lands, looking upon them with disdain and disgust?

Given that Garlemald hasn't been pushed around for over 50 years now (as I'm sure you know, they conquered Northern Ilsabard and cemented themselves as a power in 1522 of the Sixth Astral Era) and has been a powerhouse since then...

How many Pure-blood Garleans still alive and actively in leadership were actually alive when Garlemald wasn't a powerful Empire? How many have actually known that kind of persecution?

Didn't we just have an expansion that dealt with the whole "sins of the father" and ongoing justifications based on past events?

Also, they didn't exactly claw their way to relevance...they clawed their way through survival, but upon the creation of Magitek their rise was (heh) meteoric.

can be brought into reality by everyday emotions like grief over losing a child or parent.

IF a sufficient source of Aether is present to serve as the additional catalyst, and generally that's not an ongoing concern. Also worth considering that the one confirmed time we have of that kind of grief influencing a primal, their was already a summoning ritual taking place, so we can't say with certainty that the grief alone would have been enough.

[NoblePigeon]

Oh boy, an SJW.

Might as well argue with a lead-coated brick wall, at least they come without the long, rambling, sanctimonious polemics.

The irony is strong regarding the bolded.

...How is it SJW to not like racism? Is that really a term people are going to sling around with something they don't agree with? Is that what your argument's going to boil down to? Instead of refuting my points, you slap on a label. Nice.

[CaesarCV]

To be fair, it's basically confirmed in Heavensward that the Primals aren't really gods in the traditional sense. They are mere aetherial constructs made in the image defined by their worshipers. The mental state and beliefs of their summoners changes how they appear, and what they might wish to do. Titan has been said to be summoned both as a protector and a violent monster, depending on what state the Kobolds were in. This is shown in game with the sidequest that had the child Kobold angrily and nearly accidentally summon Titan, who acted differently than usual. It's not really surprising or even paradoxical that the Eorzeans can support religion but disallow summoning. After all, worship of the twelve has never involved summoning as far as we know, and they wouldn't see a conflict there.

[Lauront]

Well, if we're going to go on about chain reactions and inadvertent consequences, it seems like a logical starting point, does it not?

Didn't we just have an expansion that dealt with the whole "sins of the father" and ongoing justifications based on past events?

Also, they didn't exactly claw their way to relevance...they clawed their way through survival, but upon the creation of Magitek their rise was (heh) meteoric.

No doubt assisted by their propensity for engineering, but yes, such inventions tend to catapult a civilisation forward, they're not merely linear in their effect.

[Dualblade]

Take away the WOL, and the city-states would be engaged in a futile, never-ending cycle of primal summoning with the beast tribes, when not summoning primals themselves. One can try - conveniently - focus on Garlemald but it at least has effective means of nullifying the Eikons in the absence of some deus ex machina.

By using technology from a lost age that they almost certainly only got there hands on due to even more outside interference (Ascians), which they gleefully use on non-primal threats as well. And thats when they aren't trying to use the primals in some form to further augment their ability to conquer and destroy as well (See Ultima Weapon and Zenos). Said tech also wasn't enough to stop the age it comes from being ruined, so it probably won't be enough and will only end in another Calamity, just as the Ascians want.

Outside this quote as Noble said last page many are more then willing to see a more naunced portrayal of Garlemald. That doesn't stop the fact that they still have done a lot of bad stuff that outweighs whatever bad things happened to them in the past, to which many of the younger Garleans weren't even around for to begin with. Zenos for sure falls into that catagory, and I believe Gauis was a toddler by when Solus started making the Empire so even he didn't live as a prosecuted Garlean. And he was one of the older Garleans we knew if I remember right.

To use XII as an example, the only good Archadeans we knew before getting to their actual city/capital were Larsa (a child) and Baltheir (who hid his identity as such for half the story). And before we got to that point we/the party had seen plenty of atrocities carried out by them including the sacking of Mt Bur-Omisace. It wasn't till they actually got to the capital that they were able to see/confirm that yes not everyone in the Empire is bad (though Larsa was already doing a good job there).

We have a good amount of "good" Garleans already, many of them civilians that were introduced recently. Once we actually make our way to Garlemald we'll almost certainly meet many more, it'll be great.

[Theodric]

Given that Garlemald hasn't been pushed around for over 50 years now (as I'm sure you know, they conquered Northern Ilsabard and cemented themselves as a power in 1522 of the Sixth Astral Era) and has been a powerhouse since then...

By that logic, neither Yanxia or Gyr Abania should have been liberated as they had both been successfully conquered. Fifty years is not a terribly long stretch of time nor does it suddenly render past problems immediately resolved. Pureblood Garleans still have to deal with their inability to wield aether. Their core territory is still a wasteland. They have only had access to life's luxuries through expanding their territory, increasing their availability of food, beverages and so on.

My main point is, if Pureblood Garleans had not been treated like dirt in the first place then they would not have hardened as a people and embraced such aggression.

[Lauront]

To be fair, it's basically confirmed in Heavensward that the Primals aren't really gods in the traditional sense. They are mere aetherial constructs made in the image defined by their worshipers. The mental state and beliefs of their summoners changes how they appear, and what they might wish to do. Titan has been said to be summoned both as a protector and a violent monster, depending on what state the Kobolds were in. This is shown in game with the sidequest that had the child Kobold angrily and nearly accidentally summon Titan, who acted differently than usual. It's not really surprising or even paradoxical that the Eorzeans can support religion but disallow summoning. After all, worship of the twelve has never involved summoning as far as we know, and they wouldn't see a conflict there.

...and this is all assuming the Twelve exist. My view is that the entities called "eikons" probably have differing classes and natures, with some being able to maintain a disposition/set of ideals independent of their worshipers frame of mind. These are closer to gods and is probably the category draconic primals fall into, as well. Nonetheless, it takes precious little for someone to summon an eikon, in particular for an individual like Thordan, or Ysayle.

[Theodric]

...and this is all assuming the Twelve exist. My view is that the entities called "eikons" probably have differing classes and natures, with some being able to maintain a disposition/set of ideals independent of their worshipers frame of mind. These are closer to gods and is probably the category draconic primals fall into, as well. Nonetheless, it takes precious little for someone to summon an eikon, in particular for an individual like Thordan, or Ysayle.

They may or may not exist. Yet either way Hydaelyn's attitude, evasiveness, inefficiency and biased nature makes me rather wary in regards to anything related to religion in this setting. Given how common the 'religion is evil/misguided' trope is in JRPG's, though, I would not be terribly surprised if we end up having to fight her or force her to merge with Zodiark in the future for the sake the world's stability.