Revelations from Patch 4.2

[Lauront]

Take away the WOL, and the city-states would be engaged in a futile, never-ending cycle of primal summoning with the beast tribes, when not summoning primals themselves. One can try - conveniently - focus on Garlemald but it at least has effective means of nullifying the Eikons in the absence of some deus ex machina.

Yes, I can blame them. I can blame the one that perpetuate that racism and institutionalize it in their society, namely the Optimates faction and whatever other individuals faciliate it. I don't care how much they like to play the victim. I'm not going to try to "understand" where their racism is coming from. And I applaud the ones that don't try justifying their nation's current warlike, authoritarian tendancies, that aren't arrogant wankers towards everyone that isn't them.

Oh boy, an SJW.

Might as well argue with a lead-coated brick wall, at least they come without the long, rambling, sanctimonious polemics.

The irony is strong regarding the bolded.

[NoblePigeon]

Oh boy, an SJW.

Might as well argue with a lead-coated brick wall, at least they come without the long, rambling, sanctimonious polemics.

The irony is strong regarding the bolded.

...How is it SJW to not like racism? Is that really a term people are going to sling around with something they don't agree with? Is that what your argument's going to boil down to? Instead of refuting my points, you slap on a label. Nice.

[Dualblade]

Take away the WOL, and the city-states would be engaged in a futile, never-ending cycle of primal summoning with the beast tribes, when not summoning primals themselves. One can try - conveniently - focus on Garlemald but it at least has effective means of nullifying the Eikons in the absence of some deus ex machina.

By using technology from a lost age that they almost certainly only got there hands on due to even more outside interference (Ascians), which they gleefully use on non-primal threats as well. And thats when they aren't trying to use the primals in some form to further augment their ability to conquer and destroy as well (See Ultima Weapon and Zenos). Said tech also wasn't enough to stop the age it comes from being ruined, so it probably won't be enough and will only end in another Calamity, just as the Ascians want.

Outside this quote as Noble said last page many are more then willing to see a more naunced portrayal of Garlemald. That doesn't stop the fact that they still have done a lot of bad stuff that outweighs whatever bad things happened to them in the past, to which many of the younger Garleans weren't even around for to begin with. Zenos for sure falls into that catagory, and I believe Gauis was a toddler by when Solus started making the Empire so even he didn't live as a prosecuted Garlean. And he was one of the older Garleans we knew if I remember right.

To use XII as an example, the only good Archadeans we knew before getting to their actual city/capital were Larsa (a child) and Baltheir (who hid his identity as such for half the story). And before we got to that point we/the party had seen plenty of atrocities carried out by them including the sacking of Mt Bur-Omisace. It wasn't till they actually got to the capital that they were able to see/confirm that yes not everyone in the Empire is bad (though Larsa was already doing a good job there).

We have a good amount of "good" Garleans already, many of them civilians that were introduced recently. Once we actually make our way to Garlemald we'll almost certainly meet many more, it'll be great.

[Lauront]

By using technology from a lost age that they almost certainly only got there hands on due to even more outside interference (Ascians), which they gleefully use on non-primal threats as well. And thats when they aren't trying to use the primals in some form to further augment their ability to conquer and destroy as well (See Ultima Weapon and Zenos). Said tech also wasn't enough to stop the age it comes from being ruined, so it probably won't be enough and will only end in another Calamity, just as the Ascians want.

True, their ability to reverse-engineer and utilise Allagan technology conferred them that ability to wipe out primals.

But then the Allagan actually had to be ingenious rather than relying on some godling's protege being thrown in their direction.

[Dualblade]

True, their ability to reverse-engineer and utilise Allagan technology conferred them that ability to wipe out primals.

But then the Allagan actually had to be ingenious rather than relying on some godling's protege being thrown in their direction.

Except going by what we have learned in things like the Crystal Tower it was one person (Xande) that kept everything together and running right and upon his death it was just one long, slow decline. Then he got revived and everything went pearly shaped cause as it turns out being dead kinda affects how you think of things.

How much sway should that still hold in justifying their current actions, especially if those actions have been against nations that weren't part of the group that persecuted them in the first place? How many current Pure-blooded Garleans can be "justified" in their racism towards others, when chances are many of them grew up in the Empire, not the tiny nation that had to fight to survive?

While what you think on this is most likely what I think on it (and even though you aren't asking me), I'd also say that in real life people, countries, cultures, etc use past grudges to justify lots of things even if its been so long since the occurance happened that literally noone alive could have been around for it. So I could see it being used to "justify" themselves even if other places like Eorzea don't agree.

[Lauront]

Except going by what we have learned in things like the Crystal Tower it was one person (Xande) that kept everything together and running right and upon his death it was just one long, slow decline. Then he got revived and everything went pearly shaped cause as it turns out being dead kinda affects how you think of things.

Whether it was maintained or not through one person, they still did it without any aid from Hydaelyn. The fact of the matter is, their aetherochemical technology is useful, reliable and potent whether or not one dabbles in the Void, is religious etc.

[Theodric]

While what you think on this is most likely what I think on it (and even though you aren't asking me), I'd also say that in real life people, countries, cultures, etc use past grudges to justify lots of things even if its been so long since the occurance happened that literally noone alive could have been around for it. So I could see it being used to "justify" themselves even if other places like Eorzea don't agree.

Mm. It ranges from friendly rivalries to bitter feuds and outright hostility, yet many countries in the present day real world loathe each other for events that happened in the past. It's largely why 'everyone can come together as equals' is such a flawed, idealistic dream...and I doubt it is any different in Hydaelyn, either. Especially not when slaughter is the preferred route for dealing with anyone who does not adhere to any given major faction's ideals.

I don't buy into the idea that the 'cycle is ended' either. Ishgard didn't undergo true reform, it simply found a new enemy to distract the masses with: Garlemald. It didn't address the divide between the rich and poor even with the revelation that the nobles weren't actually nobles at all. Anyone who wanted vengeance for the deaths of their loved ones were either locked up or killed. (Ironic, given that the protagonists often go on about seeking vengeance themselves whenever anything does not go their way, but I digress...)

[Dualblade]

Mm. It ranges from friendly rivalries to bitter feuds and outright hostility, yet many countries in the present day real world loathe each other for events that happened in the past. It's largely why 'everyone can come together as equals' is such a flawed, idealistic dream...and I doubt it is any different in Hydaelyn, either. Especially not when slaughter is the preferred route for dealing with anyone who does not adhere to any given major faction's ideals.

I don't buy into the idea that the 'cycle is ended' either. Ishgard didn't undergo true reform, it simply found a new enemy to distract the masses with: Garlemald. It didn't address the divide between the rich and poor even with the revelation that the nobles weren't actually nobles at all. Anyone who wanted vengeance for the deaths of their loved ones were either locked up or killed. (Ironic, given that the protagonists often go on about seeking vengeance themselves whenever anything does not go their way, but I digress...)

Like how Garlemald "ended the cycle" of their oppresion in Ilsabard only to then turn their aggressive expansion onto Orthard and Eorzea, to which also started prior to their knowledge of primals? Hey, atleast Ishgard and Ul'dah have some common talking points to use when talking to each other!

As an aside with Zenos and for a possibly slightly different discussion, I have come to firmly believe that he is not being possessed by Elidibus (though there is a good chance of Asician foul play still being present.) I have also drifted towards being certain that Elidibus is infact possessing Regula...and the more further out theory that it is in fact like when Lahabrea possessed Thancred and its while Regula is in fact still alive. Even possibly that Regula had his life unintentially saved by being possessed. 5.0 will see us having to choose to either let Elidibus get away because we have means to defeat him but not permantly kill him, or we can take him out for a short time but be short a way to actually kill him once we have white auracite. But when we choose to go through with it we end up saving Regula, which leads to the WoL starting a good road to peace with Varis

Even in the case that this just saves Regula so he can die in peace that would probably be considered better by Varis then him being possessed so it could still have the same "possible peace in sight" ending.

[SaitoHikari]

Whether it was maintained or not through one person, they still did it without any aid from Hydaelyn. The fact of the matter is, their aetherochemical technology is useful, reliable and potent whether or not one dabbles in the Void, is religious etc.

Wait, are we sure the Allagans did everything they did without any aid from Hydaelyn? I thought it was established that Warriors of Light had always existed throughout history, it's just that for some reason, current historians have been unable to find any record of them.

As an aside with Zenos and for a possibly slightly different discussion, I have come to firmly believe that he is not being possessed by Elidibus (though there is a good chance of Asician foul play still being present.) I have also drifted towards being certain that Elidibus is infact possessing Regula...and the more further out theory that it is in fact like when Lahabrea possessed Thancred and its while Regula is in fact still alive. Even possibly that Regula had his life unintentially saved by being possessed. 5.0 will see us having to choose to either let Elidibus get away because we have means to defeat him but not permantly kill him, or we can take him out for a short time but be short a way to actually kill him once we have white auracite. But when we choose to go through with it we end up saving Regula, which leads to the WoL starting a good road to peace with Varis

Even in the case that this just saves Regula so he can die in peace that would probably be considered better by Varis then him being possessed so it could still have the same "possible peace in sight" ending.

I'm going to go with a different theory in regards to who I think Elidibus is possessing. I am not 100% sure that it's Regula, as his plotline seemed to have been wrapped up rather nicely (ALTHOUGH there was that whole thing when you spoke to the VIth Legion soldiers before fighting Zurvan, about the Legion making sure his body would be shipped back to Garlemald). If it was Regula, the devs would have to make the Warring Triad series mandatory to progress in the MSQ.

What would really have far-reaching implications is if Elidibus was actually possessing the late Emperor Solus. In a way, that would be tantamount to extreme blackmail. Nothing like sending Garlemald into complete chaos by just stepping outside and removing the mask if Varis doesn't play along.

[Claymore65]

I don't buy into the idea that the 'cycle is ended' either. Ishgard didn't undergo true reform, it simply found a new enemy to distract the masses with: Garlemald. It didn't address the divide between the rich and poor even with the revelation that the nobles weren't actually nobles at all. Anyone who wanted vengeance for the deaths of their loved ones were either locked up or killed. (Ironic, given that the protagonists often go on about seeking vengeance themselves whenever anything does not go their way, but I digress...)

I hate to nitpick, but it's hard to argue Ishgard didn't undergo any true reform. They switched their entire government from a Theocracy to a Parliamentary Democracy, with the poor now playing a major role in it (running the House of Commons). Giving the Common Man a proper voice in government is an enormous step forward for them, even if full equality hasn't been reached yet. They ended an 1000 year-old war with Dragonkind, and are on the slow route to peace. They didn't "lock away anyone who wanted vengeance", they locked away the perpetrators of a violent attack on a peaceful ceremony. I actually really liked how they acknowledged that the hatred isn't just going to go away overnight, and it's going to take a long time before both sides of the conflict truly heal from the damage. However, it's pretty clear that progress has been made.

On the "replaced Dravania with Garlemald" point, I think there is a major misunderstanding here. Ishgard isn't in a fanatical crusade against Garlemald. They allied with the rest of Eorzea in taking Ala Mihgo back, but they don't seem to be particularly interested in Garlemald at all. In fact, during the Ala Mihgo dungeon, they claim to be there to support the Warrior of Light, not to "destroy Garlemald". I don't know of any Ishgard NPCs particularly hating on Garlemald like they did against the dragons, but I may have missed something. The only Ishgardian character who really relates to Garlemald is Lucia, and even then she doesn't seem to desire the country's destruction. Aymeric's acceptance of her indicates that Ishgard probably doesn't hold much ill will toward Garlemald, at least not fanatically so.

Honestly, this extends to the rest of Eorzea, in my opinion. Overall, the Eorzeans don't seem to harbor some intense hatred of Garlemald, nor its citizens. After the battle of Carteneau Flats, Gridanian healers assisted the wounded, regardless of their allegiance. A former Garlean soldier even became one of Kan-E-Senna's most trusted soldiers. During the Baut side quests, the Alliance Soldier seem confused when Baut is convinced he'd be executed. I actually really enjoyed that plotline. Governments will often spread false information about how their enemies treat prisoners of War, and I liked seeing that in this game. The Alliance leaders clearly put their trust in Cid, despite his former allegiances, and even manage to trust Nero to a degree. Most of the NPCs don't seem to be calling for the "Death of Garlemald" either. I honestly don't think Eorzea is interested in invading or destroying Garlemald. Thus far, they've seemed more interested in protecting their own territory. The only Eorzean nation with a burning hatred for Garlemald seems to Ala Mihgo, which is a fair bit more reasonable, in my opinion. Many of their citizens suffered under Garlean rule, and are far from satisfied yet. To be fair, the more radical, hateful citizens aren't shown positively. You aren't meant to sympathize with the men and women who brutally murder Fordola's father, or attempt to kill her while she's still imprisoned. That kind of fanatical hatred is consistently shown as evil and wrong, regardless of the source or the target.

I totally understand the frustration with Garlemald's current role in the story. Thus far, they've been firmly placed in the villain role, with little wiggle room. I think we'll need to wait until we deal with their Citizenry, rather than their Military, to see their better sides. I could see the Ivalice storyline, which features a number of Garlean citizens in positive roles, being a place to explore that more in the near future. I also firmly believe the introduction of the Populares and the Optimates offers hints as to how we'll deal with Garlemald in the future.