The time has come to get rid of enrage timers

[KaivaC]

Enrages as they are are often too strict. I'm for their removal, but even just toning them down somewhat would be fine. It's fine if you don't want a fight to potentially be able to last forever, but pretty much every meaningful foe being able to just 1 shot the party after enough time just feels egregious after a while. Like, why don't they just do that at the very start of the fight?

Enrages are not a necessary mechanic to push people to want to win fights as fast as possible; they already want to do that themselves.



You're stretching. Try focusing on what the topic is actually asking about rather than just assuming players want an automatic win.

IMO if you're able to struggle through a fight without completely dying and still eke out a win, that's more preferable than the current potential situation of "well, someone died early, we might as well just wipe and start over now because of enrage"

But the thing is...a lot of fights are still winnable, even with a couple of deaths. But a lot of groups are still at min Ilvl, so why nerf some of the challenge of actually doing the tried-and-true method of not dying as a group while optimizing your full skill set before power creep starts setting in? If someone in your group is constantly dying, its on the party leader to remove that person. They have that right, and if they want to keep the group going, that's what they have to do. Unless its a static. Nobody is forcing players to try out Savage content - if one hates enrage in Savage content on the principle of 'if we struggle without dying, we should be allowed to win', then those folks should keep in mind that this is optional content and thus you need to earn your win. Some of those same folks - keep in mind I said some - are the same people who want to get carried through content. And if you're hitting enrage in normal fights after a couple of weeks, then your group is just bad <--- enrage timer, that is. The weird way enrages works for Ifrit, Leviathan, Ramuh, and Ravana are different matters.

[HyoMinPark]

Enrages as they are are often too strict.

Mmm, not really. Most fights average an enrage around 10~11 minutes, with there being some exceptions of noticeably shorter (e.g., V4S Exdeath’s enrage was at 4:50 unless you pushed him below 60% health; Twintania and Nael enrage at 3:00 in Ultimate) and some being longer (e.g., Neo’s enrage, which is at 12:40). The majority of enrages are seen in Extremes, Savage, and Ultimate—content that is supposed to be challenging. As long as players have a semblance of how to play their job and don’t die an absurd amount of times, there should be no problem meeting enrages. In V4S, you could have upwards of 10 deaths/have to healer LB3 during Grand Cross Omega and still clear, so long as you were pushing out 24,000 rDPS.

You're stretching. Try focusing on what the topic is actually asking about rather than just assuming players want an automatic win.

Eh, in a way they have a point. How many times do you see people asking for fights to be nerfed because they actually pose a challenge?

IMO if you're able to struggle through a fight without completely dying and still eke out a win, that's more preferable than the current potential situation of "well, someone died early, we might as well just wipe and start over now because of enrage"

Like I said above, you can already do that. I’ve been in groups with more than 10 deaths in V4S that had to healer LB3 during or after GCO, and we still cleared before he ever began casting his enrage Almagest. The people in the party weren’t uber-level orange parsers either.

[Vidu]

IMO if you're able to struggle through a fight without completely dying and still eke out a win, that's more preferable than the current potential situation of "well, someone died early, we might as well just wipe and start over now because of enrage"

I'll echo a bit what Kaiva and Hyomin already said: Pretty much all fights are still beatable with some deaths - even with people who dont have BiS-gear and are playing like young gods. I think my FC even managed to beat Shinryu EX with two members just barely reaching the ilvl and people dying.
In my experience people dont wipe because "we wont beat it anymore because of enrage" but rather "its to bothersome to salvage this and we're only one minute into the fights, lets reset". The only people who probably yell "wipe! enrage!" are the ones who can not afford deaths because they're not reaching the general skill-level the fight requires, aka: they're actually to bad and therefor have no place in extreme/savage content in the first place until they improve - or they're after some sort of perfect run. The later will still shout "wipe! someone died!" even without enrage.
The first group shouldnt get their kill at all. That sounds harsh, I know, but the enrage-timer is a way to check your performance. No enrage timer is super strict or "to strict" like you claim - a medicore group can pretty much clear everything. Those fights shouldnt be something that you just throw yourself against til it finally gives in - hitting enrage is a clear message to the group that they need to improve. And yes, that specially targets DPS - just how a dead tank is a clear message for the tank and the healers that they need to improve (or at least one of them has to) - a wipe-by-enrage is a clear message to the DPS that they have to improve.

I remember that my casual static had a hard time with Kalia (T11) - we hit enrage a few times, it was super frustrating. Our dragoon back then recorded one run at somepoint (not actually for research, just for fun) and one of our friends looked at and went like "Why is he (the dragoon) always turned away from the boss? Hes losing out on all his auto attacks, thats a massive dps-loss right there!"
...so yeah - hitting enrage because the dragoon was wiggeling his butt into Kalias face for like a third of the fight instead of poking her. Pretty much deserved those wipes.

Savage and extreme content should be a challenge - and the challenge shouldnt be "how long can you endure this?" but "bring your A-game and perform well!"
In my experience people are actually yelling for wipes because they dont want to endure that - it most often happens in the first minute or so, when you have to ask yourself "Do we want to struggle for the rest of the fight - or do we quickly reset?" Think about how certain classes really, really suffer when they die! Monks losing stacks, BLMs needing to build up Polyglot again, all that stuff. Might aswell reset and get a fresh, clean start with all buffs up.
You're asking for an endless struggle - and from my experience thats not what people actually want. We wipe because we dont want to salvage - not to avoid enrage. (That being said: my static is great with salvaging runs! We do that most of the time - and guess what: we still beat the thing, even with deaths, even with people not pulling godly numbers. If we wipe, we wipe for the convince of a fresh start, not because we're worried over enrage.)

Little edit: Funny enough the jobs that would suffer the most from no enrage are tanks and healers - running out of mana and cooldowns - and not the jobs primarly responsible for dragging out the fight... the dps...

If the enrage-timer feels so strict to you that your party isnt allowed to have even one dead person and needs to wipe if not everyone performs perfectly, I really wonder why your enrage is so close then... if you require perfection on the excution of the fight (aka: no one dies, so everyone does the mechanics correctly all the time), I'm wondering why those people dont invest some time to reach "perfection" at their job...
("perfection" in quotationmarks to underline that I rather mean: a medicore performance)

Little Edit: Funny enough it would be tanks and healers who'd suffer the most from dragging out fights - running out of mana and cooldowns - and not the jobs responsible for the fight going on for the 30 minutes - aka the dps that couldnt bother to gear up and/or learn their rotation...

[basketofseals]

IMO if you're able to struggle through a fight without completely dying and still eke out a win, that's more preferable than the current potential situation of "well, someone died early, we might as well just wipe and start over now because of enrage"

If you're doing this, then you're going at progression entirely wrong. Even if you know you won't beat the enrage timer, you still should see the fight to the end to get more experience. There's a lot of free damage to be gained with more optimized uptime, which you can only gain through more experience. There's a reason RDM is so good for progression. You're definitely not gonna beat the fight after the 13th raise, but the fact that you can keep going and see mechanics means you're learning at an accelerated rate.

[Shurrikhan]

If you're doing this, then you're going at progression entirely wrong. Even if you know you won't beat the enrage timer, you still should see the fight to the end to get more experience. There's a lot of free damage to be gained with more optimized uptime, which you can only gain through more experience. There's a reason RDM is so good for progression. You're definitely not gonna beat the fight after the 13th raise, but the fact that you can keep going and see mechanics means you're learning at an accelerated rate.

My experience thus far has been that rolling sloppy runs over into the next phase is only helpful if the enrage timer is highly lenient (given the particular group, and their gear), or one stand-out mechanic is particularly challenging in a way that will at first destroy coordination regardless of quality of entry. Once one has a decent grasp of what to do for the mechanic, it's far easier on muscle memory and optimization to wipe if things get messy and restart until entering that new phase cleanly, and if the enrage is tightly tuned it usually allows a group to clear faster, even if they may seen enrage later than most.

Edit: Personally, I just see Enrage as the other half of mechanics, albeit a sadly transient half. You can pass many a mechanic by doing no more than running in circles clucking and gargling if you so wished (unless it's a Blighted Bouquet mech, etc.). The enrage is what ultimately checks for the quality of play across all mechanics and between them, and I see the much more intricate relationship it encourages between one's job abilities (given their gear and surrounding party composition) and the fight itself as a massive boon to the raiding experience. Though more stressful, the fight is only a tiny portion as tedious as it otherwise would be if not for that threat, because of how it obliges me to engage with the fight on every level.

[Fynlar]

If you're doing this, then you're going at progression entirely wrong. Even if you know you won't beat the enrage timer, you still should see the fight to the end to get more experience.

There's not much to be experienced when half the party is on the floor. A lot of mechanics don't even play out as intended under those circumstances.

[Vidu]

There's not much to be experienced when half the party is on the floor. A lot of mechanics don't even play out as intended under those circumstances.

...yes and THATS why people call for a wipe - because its easier to restart and reset than to salvage. They're not calling for a wipe because of "we cant beat it anymore because enrage".
If we were to get rid of enrage timers the fights that are now planned to be 11-minute-fights (on average) would need to be changed in a way that makes it less attractive to reset them, aka: they'd had to be dragged out longer so that wiping would really hurt.
...or turned into 3-minute-striking-dummies that fall over if you poke them carefully with a BLM-rod...

[Dragoon4life]

Yeah I don’t like hard enrages either; can’t tell ya how many 1-2% have wiped us. I’m Prefer soft enrages where it’s just gets harder but still doable. I understand appealing to the hardcores is important and keeping content desirable. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Cheremia]

Let me just be able to heal all content with my regens only as WHM. Deal? Deal!

Okay, good. You can now proceed to faceroll through the game, even the ENDGAME content.
Never liked challanges anyways

And no, i'm not a raider, never did any savages and the only thing i do are a few extremes. Thats about it. And i'm still fine with it because some people WANT the challange.
They WANT to learn the mechanics to get around it.
Why take challanges away just because you can't clear them? I probably COULD, given enough time to learn the mechanics, just like every other fights i had problems with.
And if i could, nothing would stop you because i'm medicore at best.

It can get already super tedious if people keep dying on raids or anything as healer or the lonely dps/Tank that does everything right... Theres no enrage timeers needed for wipes.

I don't even think enrage timers themself are what cause the wipes.
Its the failing of mechanics and people dying BEFORE that cause the wipe.

You can't do any mechanic right and everybody hits the floor 4 times? Do you deserve the win? Probably not.
You can do mechanics kinda well, some people die like 2 times. Do you deserve the win? Yeah, probably get it, too
Nobody dies or at least maximum one death? Yep, you deserved it, here's a cookie.

[Kazgrel]

Given that the final boss of Fractal HM has essentially an enrage cast when it reaches 10-15% hp, it seems SE disagrees with the OP.

Not much of an enrage, though; I have yet to have a group unable to kill that boss before the enrage cast goes off.