Black Mage Job Changes Wishlist for 4.25 or 4.3

[HaroldSaxon]

More standard Ellie drivel...

Honestly, I haven't really seen anyone really skip Blizzard IV and its Umbral Hearts ever since the cast time buff. It's usually a bit of a DPS loss, since you'd be losing out on at least two Fire IV casts if you try that. That said, Umbral Hearts should have some level of "helping" to the spells. So long as they only affect spells during Astral Fire, and maintain the ability to reduce the costs by half, it'll be fine.

That is incorrect. In certain situations its optimal to skip because you only lose one Fire IV cast. You should read up on it.

Please dear Hydaelyn no. There's a lot of people who are trying to advocate for this, and it's honestly the scariest suggestion I've seen because it shows an utter lack of regard for balance (which is funny, because everyone complaining about Warrior's new version of Inner Release + Fell Cleave are essentially stating we should have THAT as a rotation).

Essentially? the practical potency of Fire IV (594) would be a mere 64 less than a fully buffed Fell Cleave (660), minus the confirmed Direct Crits. Combine this with the previous ideas to give Umbral Hearts the ability to buff Fire spells by 5%, then you get a whopping 623. As it already stands, Black Mage is already dealing 555 potency per Fire IV, which is 5 more potency than Verflare... and only about 100 potency less than the base potency of Foul (but just 160 less than a similarly buffed Foul). Honestly, a much more valuable buff would probably making Fire IV GCD, and not require 2.8~ seconds.

While you are correct that the combination of this + the Umbral hearts idea is probably too much, you really are not objective when looking at the classes design and evaluating what it needs and what it doesn't. Please stop peddling your awful idea of reducing the cast time of F4 further? Its completely against the classes identity. If you want GCD length cast times, play RDM or SMN. A potency increase is far more consistent with BLM than a cast time decrease.

Furthermore, comparing spell potency between RDM and BLM is an awful idea because RDM has a lot more OGCD damage.

BLM already can get a nullification to knockback, though. It's called Surecast, and it's a really useful ability.

I don't think you read the guys idea.

[EllieShadeflare]

More standard Ellie drivel...

Honestly, I'm quite used to this kind of maturity from you, Harold, since you are such an intellectual heavyweight and are clearly quite superior in your logic.

That is incorrect. In certain situations its optimal to skip because you only lose one Fire IV cast. You should read up on it.

My mistake on the number of Fire IVs then. I was going to argue against the number of Fire IVs before testing it myself. However, between the PPC of using Blizzard IV and also having the sixth Fire IV, I'd argue it's much more valuable to have it than not having it, unless you REALLY can't fit in the casts.

That said, if we really wanted to incentivise Blizzard IV, make each Umbral Heart make a Fire spell in Astral Fire free, rather than just negate the cost difference. Not sure why the devs didn't do that in the first place.

While you are correct that the combination of this + the Umbral hearts idea is probably too much, you really are not objective when looking at the classes design and evaluating what it needs and what it doesn't.

Looking at the design of the job and how its abilities function is somehow not objective but only looking at the design of one of the abilities is? Huh, I suppose class/character balance has really degenerated in quality if all we do is look at an ability in a partial vacuum rather than how it the class's gameplay as a whole.

Please stop peddling your awful idea of reducing the cast time of F4 further? Its completely against the classes identity. If you want GCD length cast times, play RDM or SMN. A potency increase is far more consistent with BLM than a cast time decrease.

I'm sorry, but I can prove you objectively wrong here, beyond what the team already did, and mostly by going over the design of Black Mage as it currently stands.

In Heavensward, the 3s cast time for Fire IV was fine and even justified because Enochian was a set timer that degenerated its max duration each time you casted Blizzard IV. At the time, Fire IV was a powerful ability with its main downside being the fact that you could lose Astral Fire and with it, losing Fire IV and no other downside.

In Stormblood, however, with Enochian's timer now being the same as AF/UI's timer, the longer cast times is now too harsh a punishment, which is why BLM's damage objectively dropped between HW and SB (because we couldn't actually make use of Umbral Hearts in any shape or form) unless you used the ARR rotation. It doesn't make much sense to have a spell that simultaneously doesn't refresh Astral Fire/Umbral Ice but also takes much longer to cast than other spells.

Besides, even if Fire IV is at GCD, we'd still be far less mobile than Summoner and Red Mage, between Summoner's higher reliance on DoTs, Dreadwyrm Trance's removal of cast time, and oGCDs and Dual Cast for Red Mage. Our only forms of mobility BLM has are Aetherial Manipulation (which is definitely useful but not truly mobile) and Triplecast and or Swiftcast... which is definitely not nearly as much as SMN or RDM. At best? We'd only match or be slightly slower than the other casters.

My problem isn't simply that BLM isn't mobile, though. I'm fine with BLM being static and turrety. My problem is that the cast time is too hefty a punishment when you consider that you can lose a significant amount of damage by being forced to Transpose, or lose Enochian. More so than what you'd lose compared to Heavensward, especially when the change was supposedly made to make Black Mage flow better. Fire IV's cast time would still require some skill to keep AF/UI, without forcing the whole rotation to be Fire IV.

Furthermore, comparing spell potency between RDM and BLM is an awful idea because RDM has a lot more OGCD damage.

Honestly? I find it kinda funny how you considered the comparison to Fell Cleave much more valid than the comparison to Verflare/Verholy, nor did you cry foul on Foul.
So, nice job throwing your credibility out the window. I compared Fire IV to Verflare/Verholy because of their raw potencies, and pointing out that Fire IV's potency is comparable to a burst phase finisher. Thanks for missing the point!

I don't think you read the guys idea.

I did. I just disagreed with the knockback nullification part. That's all.

[HaroldSaxon]

My mistake on the number of Fire IVs then. I was going to argue against the number of Fire IVs before testing it myself. However, between the PPC of using Blizzard IV and also having the sixth Fire IV, I'd argue it's much more valuable to have it than not having it, unless you REALLY can't fit in the casts.

Actually, it depends. If skipping the Blizzard IV allows you to have more Fire IV's over the course of the phase/fight, its a gain.

That said, if we really wanted to incentivise Blizzard IV, make each Umbral Heart make a Fire spell in Astral Fire free, rather than just negate the cost difference. Not sure why the devs didn't do that in the first place.

The issue with that would be our rotation would change as we would be able to fit more F4's in. You would need to adjust the mana costs and/or mana pool again

Looking at the design of the job and how its abilities function is somehow not objective but only looking at the design of one of the abilities is? Huh, I suppose class/character balance has really degenerated in quality if all we do is look at an ability in a partial vacuum rather than how it the class's gameplay as a whole.

I'm sorry, but I can prove you objectively wrong here, beyond what the team already did, and mostly by going over the design of Black Mage as it currently stands.

In Heavensward, the 3s cast time for Fire IV was fine and even justified because Enochian was a set timer that degenerated its max duration each time you casted Blizzard IV. At the time, Fire IV was a powerful ability with its main downside being the fact that you could lose Astral Fire and with it, losing Fire IV and no other downside.

In Stormblood, however, with Enochian's timer now being the same as AF/UI's timer, the longer cast times is now too harsh a punishment, which is why BLM's damage objectively dropped between HW and SB (because we couldn't actually make use of Umbral Hearts in any shape or form) unless you used the ARR rotation. It doesn't make much sense to have a spell that simultaneously doesn't refresh Astral Fire/Umbral Ice but also takes much longer to cast than other spells.

Besides, even if Fire IV is at GCD, we'd still be far less mobile than Summoner and Red Mage, between Summoner's higher reliance on DoTs, Dreadwyrm Trance's removal of cast time, and oGCDs and Dual Cast for Red Mage. Our only forms of mobility BLM has are Aetherial Manipulation (which is definitely useful but not truly mobile) and Triplecast and or Swiftcast... which is definitely not nearly as much as SMN or RDM. At best? We'd only match or be slightly slower than the other casters.

My problem isn't simply that BLM isn't mobile, though. I'm fine with BLM being static and turrety. My problem is that the cast time is too hefty a punishment when you consider that you can lose a significant amount of damage by being forced to Transpose, or lose Enochian. More so than what you'd lose compared to Heavensward, especially when the change was supposedly made to make Black Mage flow better. Fire IV's cast time would still require some skill to keep AF/UI, without forcing the whole rotation to be Fire IV.

You are completely wrong here. Each class has a specific uniqueness to it. Black Mages is longer cast times, minimal movement, selfish DPS and no OGCD's with damage. Reducing Fire IV's cast time to the GCD would flat out remove one of the things that make it unique compared to other classes.

Enochian's seperate timer in HW makes absolutely no difference and is completely irrelevent. The longer cast times are not too harsh a punishment, if you aren't able to handle them I suggest you practice and get better. The main reason Black Mage's damage dropped between HW and SB was the reduction in potency of Fire 4 and the removal of Raging Strikes. Furthermore, we lost a fair bit of Critical Hit Rate and Cast time due to the scaling of stats at level 70 - as we do at the start of the expansion.

Mobility is not Black Mages issue. It is not too hefty a punishment. In video games, you are meant to practice to get better. There isn't any significant skill needed to keep up AF/UI currently.

Honestly? I find it kinda funny how you considered the comparison to Fell Cleave much more valid than the comparison to Verflare/Verholy, nor did you cry foul on Foul.


So, nice job throwing your credibility out the window. I compared Fire IV to Verflare/Verholy because of their raw potencies, and pointing out that Fire IV's potency is comparable to a burst phase finisher. Thanks for missing the point!

I ignored the comparison to Fell Cleave because it really wasn't relevant to the discussion. The Foul one while being more relevant completely ignores what its use is - its AOE and it is a 0 mana cost spell. If you had played BLM to any decent level you would have realized that.

Again, you don't know what you are talking about. Comparing potencies between classes is not accurate at all because different classes scale differently off scaling. Different classes fill different roles, and different classes have different kits.

I did. I just disagreed with the knockback nullification part. That's all.

You said Black Mage already has a way of nullifying knockbacks. You missed the part where he suggested it be raid wide. So again, a swing and a miss.

[EllieShadeflare]

The issue with that would be our rotation would change as we would be able to fit more F4's in. You would need to adjust the mana costs and/or mana pool again

BLM's MP wasn't adjusted due to the addition of the Umbral Hearts, and honestly? It'd be fine to have more Fire IVs/extended Astral Fire phase if it means it comes as a reward for choosing to use Blizzard IV, rather than a minimal reward of one more Fire IV. My main thing would be to address the concern of Umbral Hearts not providing a reward which is one of the most common complaints given by the players.

You are completely wrong here. Each class has a specific uniqueness to it. Black Mages is longer cast times, minimal movement, selfish DPS and no OGCD's with damage. Reducing Fire IV's cast time to the GCD would flat out remove one of the things that make it unique compared to other classes.

Not... really? Under my suggestion, we'd still have to turret to be at all viable, since we still have to cast to keep our mechanics in check, Ley Lines still requires us to stay in place, and Thundercloud/Firestarter are "pseudo" OGCDs that have an GCD recast time.

Black Mage's new identity is a consistent turret that needs to make sure it doesn't lose its build up to Foul nor its bread and butter. The longer cast does not fit this new identity, and in fact seems to clash with this well oiled machine. BLM would simply feel a lot more streamlined rather than clunky, and trust me, I am not the only one who has made the complaint of BLM's clunkiness.

Enochian's seperate timer in HW makes absolutely no difference and is completely irrelevent.

In a vacuum, it doesn't. Outside of a vacuum, the separate timer allowed for players to much more easily recover from a loss of Astral Fire/Umbral Ice, while not losing the advantages of Enochian. In addition, you could actually fit Thunderclouds into your rotation much more comfortably (each Thundercloud serving as a DPS boost) and even use Sharpcast Firestarter much less awkwardly.

Now? Because Fire IV wastes much more time to cast (Assuming no Leylines and base SpS, giving only 4.6s of leeway for 3 casts, and 1.8s for 4.), it's much easier to drop Enochian, and the only recovery is arguably the lower recast of Enochian, or taking a massive drop in DPS by Transposing.

The longer cast times are not too harsh a punishment, if you aren't able to handle them I suggest you practice and get better. The main reason Black Mage's damage dropped between HW and SB was the reduction in potency of Fire 4 and the removal of Raging Strikes. Furthermore, we lost a fair bit of Critical Hit Rate and Cast time due to the scaling of stats at level 70 - as we do at the start of the expansion.

Right, this IS true. However, Foul, the addition of Direct Hit and the increase of Enochian's buff made up for the lack of Raging Strikes and the Fire IVs were mitigated by the ability to cast more of them... which we couldn't do.

Again, I'm not the only player who complains about the clunkiness of the toolset, which is only rectified by spell speed, and we all know about how much diminishing returns occur with Spell Speed. Fire IV's longer cast time doesn't work very well in the modern FFXIV.

Mobility is not Black Mages issue. It is not too hefty a punishment. In video games, you are meant to practice to get better. There isn't any significant skill needed to keep up AF/UI currently.

...Somehow, I find it funny how you accuse me of not reading what others are saying when you refuse to read what I did. I already stated mobility isn't the main issue, but it's the fact that Fire IV doesn't work well in BLM's current mindset.

I ignored the comparison to Fell Cleave because it really wasn't relevant to the discussion.

And explanation to this and Foul in three, two...

The Foul one while being more relevant completely ignores what its use is - its AOE and it is a 0 mana cost spell. If you had played BLM to any decent level you would have realized that.

One. Your point would be valid, if you didn't try to apply the most literal look at any ability possible. My comparison is to compare a "build up or get to use occasionally" potency skill with a "bread and butter" spell. That is to say, I'm basically stating "It's kinda

And you're wrong for saying that Foul is just an AoE. It's good as an AoE, sure, but it's mainly our form of a finisher (sorta). With that said, I'm just gonna throw this again, because you have this really bad habit of trying to disregard opinions that disagree with you by calling them bad.



And if you wanna know why the ad hominem makes you look bad, well...



And I understand it's a pretty hard thing to not do, I've done it quite a bit myself, and I'm trying to wean myself off of that ugly tactic.

Again, you don't know what you are talking about. Comparing potencies between classes is not accurate at all because different classes scale differently off scaling. Different classes fill different roles, and different classes have different kits.

The only valid point you have is the different kits. However, direct comparisons between potency are indeed valid. Without gear that provides stats (and using the Chicken Knife and the Weathered Scepter on Black Mage as a control for a perfectly no-stat weapon), same potency spells represent similar numbers (In this case, the 100 potency of Scatter, and the 100 potency of Scathe)



"You driveling idiot," you say, "That's not an actual gauge!" And you'd be right.

Which is why I will showcase that this is also the same for equivalent gear as well. Unfortunately, the weapons are all different stats unlike the armour pieces... so, we're again using the Weathered Scepter and Chicken Knife, using Scathe and Scatter again.



I cut out a conversation and an accidental cast of Fire II and reflect the actual information. But the information is simple. Within roles, stats scale similarly between jobs and the damage calculations between said jobs appear to be identical. So yes, potency comparisons are indeed valid. Fell Cleave may not be a fair comparison, mostly so much as it's an issue of comparing physical vs magical resistance but comparing Verflare and Fire IV is a fair comparison in terms of direct potency.

My statement is that Fire IV is comparable in potency to what would be an oGCD, a build up attack, or a finisher.

You said Black Mage already has a way of nullifying knockbacks. You missed the part where he suggested it be raid wide. So again, a swing and a miss.

Fair enough, I guess. Maybe as a raidwide thing it might be fine, but just on its own it seems to be less useful.

[Kabooa]

1. There is effectively no difference in Enochian's duration being tied to AF/UI. You get screwed in both scenarios where it is its own timer, or tied to AF/UI. Playing Black Mage optimally, even in bad situations, removes any concern from Enochian.

2. Blizzard 4 would be more effective if it made the Fire Spells free, but then it's just a mandatory spell in the rotation. Effectively only a minor change despite having a major impact. (No MP cost effectively means you get 8 FIre4s in a B4 set up, 10 in a convert window)

3. Another base spell cast time reduction is probably going to see potency reductions. At 2.8 casting speed, F4 is currently 180 potency / second. Reducing it to 2.5 bumps it up to something like 200. After applying spelllspeed (We'll use 10% as a number), you can effectively do 5 Fire4s (13 - 11.25) into a B3 (1.57), with enough MP left over to move straight in T3. This brings your rotation time to approximately 18-21 seconds.

4. Black Mages MP adjustment was due to a few scenarios that made adhering to the server MP tick more critical than currently (And it's still pretty important now). One of those scenarios had to deal with Blizzard 4.

[EllieShadeflare]

1. There is effectively no difference in Enochian's duration being tied to AF/UI. You get screwed in both scenarios where it is its own timer, or tied to AF/UI.

...There is a fundamental difference, especially if you actually played both expansions. Losing Astral Fire/Umbral Ice only meant losing Astral Fire/Umbral Ice. You still had the effects of Enochian, you could still recover, and you could keep your damage. Here? It's all or nothing. If you lose Astral Fire and Umbral Ice, not only do you lose Enochian, but you also lose a Foul in your rotation (which ironically brings back the original failure problems of Enochian!). While Enochian's problems back then were problems faced by any temporary "burst" phases (BotD, DWT, Berserk, etc), it wasn't a problem that actively punished your active playing of the class or trying to deal with mechanics. Speaking of which.

Playing Black Mage optimally, even in bad situations, removes any concern from Enochian.

Playing any class optimally removes concern to the flaws of those classes for the optimized players, but does not remove the flaws from being there. And no, not all weaknesses are flaws but weaknesses that do not fit the mechanics are flaws. The thing that any player who uses "optimization" to silence discussion about similar design flaws of their jobs don't under stand is that not everyone can or will play optimally, and even those who can, can't do so all the time. Just because you have gotten used to the flaws does not mean that they stop existing or aren't flaws.

2. Blizzard 4 would be more effective if it made the Fire Spells free, but then it's just a mandatory spell in the rotation. Effectively only a minor change despite having a major impact. (No MP cost effectively means you get 8 FIre4s in a B4 set up, 10 in a convert window)

Well, five Fire IVs are still effective if you can't fit in the casts and still move, especially since it would be difficult to place 8 Fire IVs in a rotation, much less 10. And it doesn't matter if I'm talking about my proposal of reducing cast times or not. There will always be a time where trying to fit that many Fire IVs would cause a detriment to movement.

3. Another base spell cast time reduction is probably going to see potency reductions. At 2.8 casting speed, F4 is currently 180 200 potency / second. Reducing it to 2.5 bumps it up to something like 200 225. After applying spelllspeed (We'll use 10% as a number), you can effectively do 5 Fire4s (13 - 11.25) into a B3 (1.57), with enough MP left over to move straight in T3. This brings your rotation time to approximately 18-21 seconds.

((Author's note: I did a bit of math to update the actual potency per second, rounding up to the nearest 5.))

Then where was the cast time increase when we returned the base potency to 280? Realistically speaking, while the potency per second would increase PPS, the actual damage from BLM mostly comes from the number of casts that you can use in a phase.

Also, as a side note, wasn't the original complaint by many players that the damage was too low for BLM? This would be a change that wouldn't drastically overpower Black Mage, but would instead make the rotation much more streamlined. If BLM could do the full 5 Fire IVs for situations that didn't call for Umbral Hearts? Good for them if it increases their damage to do that, and heck, make Thunder III reliable.

4. Black Mages MP adjustment was due to a few scenarios that made adhering to the server MP tick more critical than currently (And it's still pretty important now). One of those scenarios had to deal with Blizzard 4.

Perhaps, though it feels pretty much the same as in HW, so fair enough.

[Kabooa]

Playing any class optimally removes concern to the flaws of those classes for the optimized players, but does not remove the flaws from being there. And no, not all weaknesses are flaws but weaknesses that do not fit the mechanics are flaws. The thing that any player who uses "optimization" to silence discussion about similar design flaws of their jobs don't under stand is that not everyone can or will play optimally, and even those who can, can't do so all the time. Just because you have gotten used to the flaws does not mean that they stop existing or aren't flaws.

Given that Enochian and AF/UI are easier to upkeep than ever, I honestly don't understand your problem with it.

Fire 4 at 2.8 cast time with 280 potency is effectively 100 potency per second, not applying any buffs. That means it is 180 (with AF3) potency / second. For the sake of ease I did not include Enochian's 10% bonus.

Whether or not you can fit 8 fire 4s in one AF phase does not detract from the intrinsic value of higher AF uptime. My comment on B4 is less some sort of criticism as it is remark for how major an impact such a change would be.

Lastly, black mages in general don't know what they want as a consensus.

I personally kind of view any sort of significant damage buff as getting nullified at a later date because of this armsrace mentality and SE's history of ensuring everyone, despite kit disparity, is within 5% of the average when all factors are accounted for. I'd rather have something more concrete added to our toolkit than a damage buff.

[EllieShadeflare]

Given that Enochian and AF/UI are easier to upkeep than ever, I honestly don't understand your problem with it.

It's hard to convey, but it's a rotation that is easier to upkeep in theory and when stationary but will mess up if you slip up your muscle memory or have any real movement to do. I've noticed serious issues in trying to maintain my Enochian whilst facing Byakko for the first time (but of course, going into a fight for the first time always has a disorienting effect on people).

Fire 4 at 2.8 cast time with 280 potency is effectively 100 potency per second, not applying any buffs. That means it is 180 (with AF3) potency / second. For the sake of ease I did not include Enochian's 10% bonus.

Fair point, but Enochian is always on, though. There's no reason to remove it, because it seems like you'd be underselling its power, to be honest.

Whether or not you can fit 8 fire 4s in one AF phase does not detract from the intrinsic value of higher AF uptime. My comment on B4 is less some sort of criticism as it is remark for how major an impact such a change would be.

Yes, it would be a major impact. It'd be an impact that would improve the DPS of the class, without potentially overpowering the skill itself. Heck, I'd almost say it'd make BLM flow better by having access to more Fire Is instead, and could frankly leave Fire IV the way it was if the only change was Umbral Hearts entirely removing the cost.

And honestly? I'm preferring this particular discussion over the discussion with Harold. You seem to have a much more respectful and less disdainful tone, which I think helps trying to convey points to each other a lot better.

[Kolsykol]

I like explosion.

[Kabooa]

Yes, it would be a major impact. It'd be an impact that would improve the DPS of the class, without potentially overpowering the skill itself. Heck, I'd almost say it'd make BLM flow better by having access to more Fire Is instead, and could frankly leave Fire IV the way it was if the only change was Umbral Hearts entirely removing the cost.

One of the most important factors towards balance adjustment is you aren't supposed to go in with a hammer. Which is why I made sure to point out the implications of not just one change, but all of them in tandem.

As a pure GCD class, Black Mage's uptime in AF is important (We generally want more) but we also have an inverse relationship with spellspeed (MOre GCDs is more damage). The greater our spellspeed is, consequently, the less uptime we have in AF -but we also get more out of that AF time-. The more forgiving our timers are, the more abusive we can be with winging those timers. I will tell you personally that the timer is always on my mind, not because I fear dropping it, but because I find perverse joy in skirting that timer as much as I can.

This is why another spellspeed adjustment to F4 is problematic. Spellspeed is a parabolic increase, and a heavy one at that but with low initial returns. 1% spellspeed is 1%. 10% is 11% (we get 11 gcds in the time of 10), 25% is 33%, 50% is 100%. The scaling on speed is stupid, and in many ways, more potent than Potency boosts.

Combining this with the B4 for free fire compounds upon spellspeed. More AF uptime, and an easier time fitting in spells for it. Effectively we have a Leylines Convert opener as our basic rotation (2.8 to 2.5 is approximately a 13% spellspeed equivalent, and 3 free fire spells gives us the 8 fire 4 we get with convert). Comparatively speaking, this is around an 18% DPS buff (which is in absurd levels).

Don't get me wrong. That sounds pretty awesome though the excitement would be lost pretty easily. The most enjoyable part of pushing DPS is racing people. Not in a speedkill race, but shoulder to shoulder with your buddies, aiming for #1, not on FFLogs, but with your team. The most enjoyable moments I have had in this game involved a random Samurai, Summoner, or Black Mage who have either left me in the dust, or forced me to reconsider even the most minute details in Halicarnassus for how I could catch and pass them.

This is the perspective I work from when offering critique and criticism, and my own views on where Black Mages need to be. I don't want to be +20% over the other guy. I want to be shoulder to shoulder and grasping for the finish line, but I want to do it while offering something useful to the group. Being the best by default because you picked the right job is the most boring end result, but the joy of the race is taken away somewhat knowing that you have sacrificed a suite of useful and valuable tools.