O5N is unfair for pure healer

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Same can be said for you then, you are being obtuse for thinking casting stone is different then casting cure. It has the same feel as far as being in a rotation. Do you just want to get away with standing around doing nothing if the dps checks in savage allows it? Saying you do not want to do DPS is just strange to me, thinking it is different when it isnt.

Do you presume healers in other MMOs "stand around doing nothing?" Healers in WoW raids work significantly harder despite scarcely DPSing. Why? Because the sheer amount of outgoing damage is several times that of FFXIV, thus healers actually have to perform their role far more frequently. Basically, you're missing the argument. Many healers want more challenging healing mechanics because they prefer that aesthetic. That isn't to say they necessarily want to never DPS but FXIV allows for an insane amount of downtime. Even in Savage, you'll spend far more time spamming Stone/Malefic/Broil than you ever will any healing spell.

Why hang so many dogs on the OP, when the game developer himself has told healer should not be asked to do dps? They have just admitted that, healers are for healing and you cant ask them to do dps.

Yoshida can say whatever he fancies. They simply don't design fights that warrants healers to only heal. When forming a static or pug, majority opinion will generally prevail. If they absolutely can ask the healers to DPS, and kick them for refusing. After all, it's their party.

Speaking only for myself. I won't raid in a static with healers that refuse to DPS. You are functionally useless more than half the battle. Why should you be allowed to stand around while I and everyone else utilities our full kit?

While I understand your point - and agree with you - I'd say that the community here will not listen a word.

The community decides based on functionality. If there isn't enough outgoing damage to warrant consistent healing, you're useless to the group should you not contribute DPS. It boils down to simple pragmatism. I can take a healer who stands around doing absolutely nothing unless some form of damage happens or I can take one who deals damage while still performing their role properly. Is it truly surprising why the community prefers the latter?

[Vstarstruck]

Do you presume healers in other MMOs "stand around doing nothing?" Healers in WoW raids work significantly harder despite scarcely DPSing. Why? Because the sheer amount of outgoing damage is several times that of FFXIV, thus healers actually have to perform their role far more frequently. Basically, you're missing the argument. Manyhealers want more challenging healing mechanics because they prefer that aesthetic. That isn't to say they necessarily want to never DPS but FXIV allows for an insane amount of downtime. Even in Savage, you'll spend far more time spamming Stone/Malefic/Broil than you ever will any healing spell.

It is possible, but we are talking in the context of FFXIV, I do not know how healing works in other games in high end content, it is up to them to explain that and why that feels different and explain the specific complaint. As is though, the feel of casting cure or stone in this game is no different in a scope of a feel of a rotation, and I am trying to figure out what they are talking about.

How can you "hate" something when the feel is the same, it is confusing idea to me. Now it is totally different to say they hate the general healing role in this game, vs just hating using DPS abilities, but they did not want to explain that so... im lost. To me they are basically saying they just want to sit there and do nothing for short periods of time (because pressing buttons too fast is too hard), or get away with overhealing more, but.. that is why I was trying to ask for clarification, something they refused to do, for some reason. (A tank told me to slow down in pressing buttons so I may have a scar bias -.-)

Another thing odd to me is I feel true friends would allow others try different classes time to time but.. I really never ran into such things, I do not care about what class to play, I just want things done. There is nothing I "hate" (other then development making questionable design changes in patches and players that fail to meet easy skill bars.)

[Bourne_Endeavor]

It is possible, but we are talking in the context of FFXIV, I do not know how healing works in other games in high end content, it is up to them to explain that and why that feels different and explain the specific complaint. As is though, the feel of casting cure or stone in this game is no different in a scope of a feel of a rotation, and I am trying to figure out what they are talking about.

How can you "hate" something when the feel is the same, it is confusing idea to me. Now it is totally different to say they hate the general healing role in this game, vs just hating using DPS abilities, but they did not want to explain that so... im lost. To me they are basically saying they just want to sit there and do nothing, or get away with overhealing more, but.. that is why I was trying to ask for clarification, something they refused to do, for some reason.

Feelings are entirely subjective. For example, I find Astro DPS insufferably boring yet enjoy DPSing on WHM. Despite Stone IV and Malefic III essentially serving the same purpose, WHM simply has better alternatives. At least, I believe so. As for healing, I'm paying attention to a multitude of things than simply using "Cure" in place of Stone.

- Will this overheal?
- Can Regen ticks cover it?
- Is the damage negligible enough I can ignore it?
- Should I shield/Benison the upcoming hit?
- Will <insert heal spell> be enough?

Malefic III, on the other hand, is brainless button mashing until I finally get to use Combust II again. That's a highlight.

In other games, very rarely do healers or the equivalent spent less time actually casting heals. They still do, however the ratio promotes their actual role first whereas in FFXIV, you're more or less a DPS who heals. That isn't to say there is functionally anything wrong with such a design philosophy per se. It does come across a little silly though when Yoshida attempts to argue healers aren't expected to DPS.

[Ametrine]

Snip

I said this earlier, but FFXIV is really unusual in how it's built healers in group content.

Many MMOs will give the healer jobs the most remedial means to attack, but the skillset and power leaves you to have to spend 99% of your time healing.

Obviously, there are players who enjoy that and are used to that, so when FFXIV's "healer" jobs play more like what other games would consider a more support focused job (emphasis on heals, buffs, damage, in that priority order), players with that experience find it odd, off-putting even. Healing in FFXIV is barely healing at all.

FFXIV also, comparatively, tunes it's heal to be quite strong, so you have more time between casting heals.

While most of us like the more dynamic nature of the role in FFXIV, and "encourage" other players to embrace it, you're bound to get exceptions that really just want to heal, heal, heal.

[Sebazy]

And the most baffling is when they overestimate the damage done by a healer or underestimate how bad can be a DF party. It is more likely they're now DPS who never healed a DF party since the 1st Umbral Era and never were on a bad party or think that people standing on the bad is just a legend.

Oh come on now.

How many different logs have I shown and broken down for you on the Healer board over the last month or so? I've done 3.8k dps in a dungeon with a premade that curb stomped the place in 11 minutes and I've done 3.8k dps in a solo queue where it's taken 20+. Things need to go worse than that extreme before my damage starts tailing off and even then I can usually still hold at least 3k.

Implying that I'm 'imposing my dogma' is just insulting. I'm basing my opinion on the facts infront of me as much as I am my own personal views.

[Xelanar]

Problem I personally have with doing DPS as a healer(Astrologian to be precise) is how utterly boring it is.
Single target: Cast Combust every 30 seconds -> spam Malefic.
AoE: Earthly Star if it's not needed elsewhere -> spam Gravity.

There is no need to put any thoughts into it, no rotation to keep in mind, no procs to look forward to.

Healing is fine. Using cards is fine too, but DPSing just feels terribly bland. Since implementation of role skills I don't even have to plan DPS / Healing around Cleric Stance anymore.

Also dealing damage feels really slow. Not sure if this issue is specific to Astrologians, but since we basically have the lowest DPS of all classes to balance our card usage, not only is my DPS "rotation" reduced down to spamming a single skill - It also takes me forever to kill something, so DPSing does not feel rewarding at all, no matter if I'm alone, running a dungeon or going on a raid.

When healing entire parties from 1 HP to full in the blink of an eye, I feel powerful. When placing card buffs on everyone, I feel powerful too!
And when DPSing I don't. It's not satisfying at all. Which honestly would be perfectly fine... IF combat was not "forcing" me into DPSing more than I feel it should.

I'm not saying that everything is undescribably terrible. If that was the case, I'd not be playing a healing class in the first place. The above is just an insight to showcase how I feel when dealing damage takes priority during combat, and why I feel this way. I do it, because encounters encourage me to do so, and I'm glad for every second I don't have to, because there is something else to do, that feels more useful.

[RiyahArp]

it's because healing is so easy even at the Savage level that healers have too much time to stand around and pick their butts that they DPS, and are expected to DPS now to meet arbitrary hard enrage requirements.

I don't think it's that easy to heal in savage, and I think people overrate ogcd heals. We have them because it's pretty easy for a tank to lose up to 75% of their health, or a DPS needing to be brought from zero to full in a second or two to avoid another death. I kind of think people who assume its easy tend to forget that if it is for them, it's because they've practiced one single fight for 9-40 or more realtime hours until every phase is ingrained in them and their dps and tanks make zero mistakes.

But if you are having to heal, dps, and buff while needing to react in a split second because someone made a mistake that will wipe them, while planning all your abilities to be used at the right time to give you freedom to GCD, it's not easy at all. If anything the boss encounters in this game have to avoid meaningful randomness because we simply can't react that fast. If we had to do a six button dps combo with buffs, we wouldn't be able to dps at all; we'd be always interrupting our combo because our oGCDS are not enough unless both healers have perfect coordination and the rest of the party made absolutely zero mistakes.

[NephthysVasudan]

I'm a healer and like any good healer I only heal, this fight is literally impossible for me to clear because of the way it's made. We need to add a npc in that we would need to heal so that he would deal with the ghost for us. I don't know how I could clear this fight otherwise

As a White Mage myself...you should be ashamed of yourself. Leave...don't bother coming back until you learn to be a proper white mage.

[Nedkel]

I really hope you quit healing. I really, really hope you go through with it, because you sound like someone I would never want to have in my DF or PF parties.

Show us your parse, so we could judge your playstyle too.

I have healed almost every single content in this game since 1.0 (only current patch, Coil Savage and Ultimate excluded) and I have never ever met a tank so bad I would have not had any time to DPS. Of course there are situations which require a lot of healing, but looking at standard runs rather than exceptions, it is clear healers should have plenty of time to DPS in all content.

I don't know if you've played healer in this content yourself, but in many low level dungeons you don't really need to cast many heals at all during pulls. In Sastasha you mentioned as an example, I once watched my partner heal it in full-time cleric stance (pre-SB) using nothing but Essential Dignity.

That does not change my experience with the healers in the game.
I had just too many situations where i had to pop up 2 cd's at the time and lifesteal/clemency for the sake of keeping me alive, because healer decided to do dps.
I dont like it at all, just keep me alive when im tanking it.
IT WOULD BE more beneficial to the party if i will be able to pull more than 3 groups of mobs and not die in the process.

I can let you know right now that I do all my DF content as a healer, most often solo queueing and rarely queueing with a DPS buddy, and my views are based on this extensive experience of actually healing a lot of different random groups in all levels of content. And, like I said, I've never had a group in which I haven't had a chance to DPS at all.

I would be very interested in seeing someone post logs or video evidence from a run where DPSing as a healer would be literally impossible or at least close to it. My mind is far from being set in stone, as I'm more than willing to change my stance if I see evidence proving me wrong.

Edit: I should add, in case it isn't clear to everyone, that there's a difference in content being possible to DPS in, and DPS being a reasonable expectation from the healer in that situation. For example, a while ago I was leveling my DRK and ended up in Library hard with a newbie healer who was not able to survive the wall boss. If the healer would have handled the boss mechanics and the basics of their job, they would have been able to DPS quite a lot. But since they didn't handle either, it would have been an unreasonable expectation from them, and I did not even encourage them to try DPSing, but instead tried to cheer them on and help them handle the mechanics. In the end I ended up soloing about 30% (I think, not entirely sure) of the boss on our third try (since the healer always died and no other party members had self heals), but I know the healer still tried their best. So saying healers generally have room for DPS in standard situations in all content does not mean that all healers should be expected to DPS (at least a lot) in all content in every situation.

Still you and the big part of the community require from the healers class to do more job than you do on the DPS class.
If the dps is so difficult, so why there is so big disparity in numbers of the players of each class?
Do not ask to do your job on someone who has different job than you, the game neither the developer does not ask a healer to do dps, its just a community fantasy that is unnecessary and bad especially in dungeon runs where you have to clear a lot of trash mobs in them. Letting me pull 1 more group would make it faster than few healers dots.

[MoroMurasaki]

That does not change my experience with the healers in the game.
I had just too many situations where i had to pop up 2 cd's at the time and lifesteal/clemency for the sake of keeping me alive, because healer decided to do dps.
I dont like it at all, just keep me alive when im tanking it.
IT WOULD BE more beneficial to the party if i will be able to pull more than 3 groups of mobs and not die in the process.

To paraphrase for you... "I've had healers that can't manage dps and healing properly so it is an unreasonable expectation to have!"

There are plenty of healers who can dps their hearts out irrespective of the size of a pull. You've spoken to some of them in this thread. Why do you seem to think your antecdotal evidence matters here when the plethora of people saying that they have an easy time dpsing as a healer are just being dismissed or going unacknowledged by you?

Also you've got Clemency for a reason. If your healer is in the middle of a PoM+CS Holy spam and you feel like you need healing by all means heal yourself. The ability isn't just there for soloing. You casting Clemency doesn't mean your healer is bad, for all you know they were waiting to get the most bang for their buck from an Essential Dignity/Benediction.