Revelations from Patch 4.2

[Theodric]

Regarding Yotsuyu:

It's possible to condemn someone's actions and still understand where they're coming from and/or feel sympathy for the lot they were cast in life. Unlike many others, Yotsuyu didn't have anyone to truly lean upon and support her from an early age. Thus it isn't terribly surprising that she did not learn right from wrong. When people are pushed and pushed and pushed then it isn't at all surprising when something snaps inside of them. She isn't blameless, yet a considerable amount of blame can be heaped on the shoulders of those who allowed her to become that way in the first place. Which, incidentally, happens to be a product of one of Doma's more toxic cultural elements.

As for 'not caring' about how similar characters have been handled in previous Final Fantasy games? Well, that's unfortunate but each to their own. For me and many other's it's a large part of the franchise's charm. There's absolutely nothing wrong with understanding and rooting for antagonists in fictional settings and it has absolutely no bearing on whether people would root for those same individuals in the real world.

I do agree that Yotsuyu's and Gosetsu's stories could have ended nicely after Doma Castle, though - and I am a bit annoyed that much more sympathetic antagonists were simply killed off and forgotten about whereas Fordola and Yotsuyu end up getting their motives explored in full. So, unfortunately, I'm just going to have to take what I can get - especially with the main antagonist of Stormblood being Zenos who was specifically designed as someone people won't want to sympathise with. I find those sorts of characters far less interesting than those that can at least have their point of view understood.

[VargasVermillion]

On Asahi

I find Asahi's outburst odd given the WoL would simply spill the beans, there's obviously some other plan going on here. My current guess is the overall idea of an alliance could be legitimate but Asahi is using that to further his own goals in some fashion, either that or he could just have a personal hatred for the WoL while still having faith in garlemald striving for peace, the one difference between him and zenos is he seems to have genuine belief in the garlean cause, whereas zenos just didn't care at all.

On Yotsuyu

A difficult situation, obviously she has done terrible things but when they truly have lost memories and become a different person it's hard to say whether it is worth killing them imo. If this somehow continues (which it won't) then she'd likely live out the rest of her days under house arrest in a quiet limbo of sorts, I feel hiens ultimate decision was a sound one, if she 'returns' send her back, if not then keep tabs on her while living as a doman citizen. Although one things seems plain to me, the relationship between her and Asahi was not a mutually beneficial one and on being taken back to garlemald she would probably just be forced to give out remaining info and killed for her failures.

[Estherna]

On Asahi and the Main Quest

For me there is two realistic explanations :

First, I do wonder if it isn't another plot from Garlemald, this time aiming to undermine the relationship between the Domans and the WoL. Because the thing is that we are not just a quasi-divine fighter, we are a beacon of hope, a symbol for every nation under the rule of Garlemald they can rally around. The WoL managed to overcome every obstacle and to beat every enemy, which shows to the world that Garlemald isn't invincible.

And Garlemald probably understood that they can't kill us. We beat Zenos, Garlemald strongest warrior, who had the power of one of the most powerful Primal of all recent history. At this point, Garlemald doesn't really have anything they can throw at us that can be a real threat...

I wouldn't be surprised if the Garleans say to Hien at some point : "Okay we can recognize you as independent as long as you cut your ties with the WoL and the Scions because they are our ennemies, they killed our Crown Prince after all". Hien of course, would personally agree to something like that. But with his people on the balance? Will he be willing to risk their freedom and their lives for our friendship?

Another solution is linked with what Asahi said in the last scene, that he is working for another master. That could be of course Zenos. But the story about the Populares and the Optimates makes me wonder how strong Varis power is. We know that he became Emperor through a civil war. Which mean that Garlemald is far from being stable and this faction turmoil is yet anoter clue. And since Varis became Emperor, you can't really say that he has done a tremendeous job: They failed to secure Azys Lla, they lost 2 Legions and finally Ala Mhigo and Doma became independent. And knowing that the Garleans are deeply afraid that their Empire would crumble at some point, as they had been persecuted at some point in their history, the exemple of smalls countries managing to beat the Imperial Army and becoming independent isn't something that will appease them.

So maybe Asahi is working for another faction/individual and seeks to undermine the Emperor new policy of diplomacy? Allowing for another rebellion inside Garlemald, with us at some point having to go there and help Varis keeping his throne to avoid another blood-thirsty conquerant at the head of the Empire...

[Ryaz]

Thoughts on MSQ:

Sadly, FFXIV is starting to get a bit predictable. I was really hoping Asahi to show another side of Garlemald, but SE seems intent on keeping the Empire as a one dimensional villain. The worst part is, I could see it coming a mile away, but was hoping for something different. It would have been a great way to show a different side to the Garleans, but seems it's not to be.

Not sure how I feel about Yotsuyu. Yeah she had a hard life, but she's done a lot of horrible things and I think Gosetsu is acting like an idiot.

Thoughts on Raid:

Love it. FFVI is my favorite of all time and I love the fights, even if normal was easy. I knew all the mechanics after going in once blind. May end up actually trying Savage this time.

[NoblePigeon]

Thoughts on MSQ:

Sadly, FFXIV is starting to get a bit predictable. I was really hoping Asahi to show another side of Garlemald, but SE seems intent on keeping the Empire as a one dimensional villain. The worst part is, I could see it coming a mile away, but was hoping for something different. It would have been a great way to show a different side to the Garleans, but seems it's not to be.

Not sure how I feel about Yotsuyu. Yeah she had a hard life, but she's done a lot of horrible things and I think Gosetsu is acting like an idiot.

Regarding Garlemald/etc

We've already gotten our non-evil Imperials, and it's everyone on the Prima Vista. That WAS another side of Garlemald. SE has done the exact opposite of keeping the Empire as a one dimensional villain because they've repeatedly had characters that are distinctly not one dimensional. And we don't know if Asahi was making things up about the Populares faction or not. So, sorry, but I really disagree with this assessment.

[Dualblade]

Regarding Garlemald/etc

We've already gotten our non-evil Imperials, and it's everyone on the Prima Vista. That WAS another side of Garlemald. SE has done the exact opposite of keeping the Empire as a one dimensional villain because they've repeatedly had characters that are distinctly not one dimensional. And we don't know if Asahi was making things up about the Populares faction or not. So, sorry, but I really disagree with this assessment.

He is still right though

It was rather predicatable that Asahi was going to end up being an antagonist atleast, there was enough forshadowing this patch leading up to it and most MSQ Garleans are atleast antagonistic to us. Yes the Ivalice raid Garleans show another side but that is regulated to side content, people want the good/better Garleans showing up in the MSQ itself.

That said Garlean having political divides about how best to help/control their territories is probably not a lie, regardless of how Asahi truly feels about either faction.

[Alleo]

@Theodric (probably last post on her since I already talked quite a lot about this in other threads)

I never said that I could not understand why she does the things she does, but I still believe that her past does not make her actions right. Just how I can understand that someone can snap after too much pressure. I am fine if Hien uses this to make Doma into a better place but realistically you will always have people like her because you will never have the perfect place and not everyone snaps under the same conditions. Would you have the same view if a real live Yotsuyu came to where you live and kill and torture those that you love? Would you still feel sympathetic? I mean for me there is still a difference between knowing how someone can turn into something like that and someone feeling bad/sympathetic for them. And for me I take my values of the real world into a game because I try to see myself in someone elses shoes and see how I would feel. And just thinking about someone like her in the real life makes me shudder. (But thats just me, I am not saying that everyone needs to do that.)

The problem with her story is her memory loss. If this is the reason that she will get away without any punishment I would just feel horrible about this. Tsuyu is not responsible for the actions of Yotsuyu but at the same time that means that Doma can never get full closure towards her reign. I just put myself into the shoes of one of that abused by her. See her walking around without any kind of guilt (since she does not remember them) but you yourself remember what you had to go through thanks to her. Maybe someone from your family was tortured right in front of you or even killed. But you will never get"revenge" for that because that person lost their memory and is now living a free life. I am not for people doing their own justice by killing her on the street but I can truly understand that they would feel a lot of hate towards that person. Forgiveness is not easy and I am not sure if its reasonable to forgive something like that. There can only be closure for those but with her not having her memories they will never truly get that. (IMO) Also who will say if she does not suddenly remember things from her past again and starts turning back to her old self? I mean its seems possible that she could regain them so wouldnt that put those in danger again?

I really hope that she either gets her memory fully back and backstabs Hien and Gosetsu thus being different than Fordola which might mean that she will get her death later. Or she gets it back but also remembers the kindness and wants to redeem herself in any way..maybe even regretting these things. I dont want her to simply be free to live her life while so many people suffered under her rule..

And I will put most of the blame on her shoulders. She had it bad and those people that did it are at least the reason that she might have considered that path. But it was still her that chose to go that way. Her past made it not that easy on her and her choices but she still had her own will to chose it. Being the better person takes a lot of inner strenght to do that and the easier path is just to blame everyone else. She choose the easier way and enjoyed it. Also her actions might also influence Yanxia for a long time. She was the one ruling it and we know from Isse that her rule was bad with soldiers even saying that they might rape his younger sister if they came back. A really big amount of the population have traumatic scars thanks to her too. Who knows maybe another Yotsuyu will rise out of this because they will be full of hate if Tsuyu will live her life peacefully without any kind of punishment.

@Estherna:

You raise some really interesting points about possible reasons behind their act. Still I am not sure if Hien would ever truly cut ties with the Wol and Scion. It is only thanks to them that he got his country back. It was the WoL that won the battle thus got the Auri as an alliance to fight on his side. Also the WoL did a lot of fighting too. Cutting ties with us would mean that he has nobody that would fight a primal if one appears and who knows if they would get the help of Eorzea when he does not want the WoL on his side anymore. I mean the alliance love to send us to such problems. So cutting ties would mean a great loss.

At the same time Hien is not stupid, so he would be quite sure that such a step might just mean another invasion from Garlemald since he would not have the power of the WoL anymore..maybe they would even try to force primal summoning or something like that so that the peace would be broken.

Maybe they might try something like that but Hien should normally be more level headed and not just let them be threated like that. (Or I hope so)

[Rosenoire]

Re: MSQ Stinger

CAN SOMEONE THAT ISN'T HAURCHEFANT STAY DEAD. PLEASE. Failing that bring back Haurchefant; everyone else on Hydealyn has to die at least twice for it to stick.

THANK YOU. I said that first part in those exact words when I watched that cutscene. Death is obviously just a temporary inconvenience on this world, so why can't the WoL get our BFF back?

[NoblePigeon]

quote

Well sure it was predictable, but

he didn't go bad because of "im imperial so that's why im evil", but because he's a fanboy of Zenos. The main problem I had is that people keep thinking the Empire's going to be portrayed one-dimensionally when we've seen evidence that SE is distinctly not doing that, and there's lead ups to having more sympathetic Garleans that you aren't going to have to fight on sight.

The story for Stormblood hasn't ended yet. The next expansion could very well go into Garlemald and we're likely going to get a LOT of revelations. I'm 200% certain SE is setting things up to make things more multi-faceted, and make distinctions between the Empire itself being a threat (which it is), while Garleans as a whole are not.

[LineageRazor]

@Theodric (probably last post on her since I already talked quite a lot about this in other threads)

The problem with her story is her memory loss. If this is the reason that she will get away without any punishment I would just feel horrible about this. Tsuyu is not responsible for the actions of Yotsuyu but at the same time that means that Doma can never get full closure towards her reign. I just put myself into the shoes of one of that abused by her. See her walking around without any kind of guilt (since she does not remember them) but you yourself remember what you had to go through thanks to her. Maybe someone from your family was tortured right in front of you or even killed. But you will never get"revenge" for that because that person lost their memory and is now living a free life. I am not for people doing their own justice by killing her on the street but I can truly understand that they would feel a lot of hate towards that person. Forgiveness is not easy and I am not sure if its reasonable to forgive something like that. There can only be closure for those but with her not having her memories they will never truly get that. (IMO) Also who will say if she does not suddenly remember things from her past again and starts turning back to her old self? I mean its seems possible that she could regain them so wouldnt that put those in danger again?

To respond to this...

While I groaned on the whole Easy Amnesia trope being applied to Yotsuyu, it's what we have to deal with, so let's run with it: It's a mistake to think of it as Yotsuyu getting off scott-free. She WAS punished. She DIED. More than that, she died in despair, because she didn't get the satisfaction of taking Hien with her, and died knowing it.

Assuming that the amnesia is permanent, justice has already been meted out. The problem is that, as a side effect of Yotsuyu's death, a new woman - a child, really - named Tsuyu had the misfortune of being born into the woman's body. If we accept that the amnesia is real and permanent, then there is no obligation to punish Tsuyu for the crimes of another woman, especially since that woman already paid for those crimes with her life.

The folks Yotsuyu hurt already have their closure; as far as they know, their tormentor died in the castle collapse. Seeing a woman wandering around with Yotsuyu's face would certainly reopen those wounds, but there's no need for that to happen - just exile her. Get her out of Orthard, let her live out her days in Eorzea or something. Of course, a complication arises in how attached she is to Goetetsu, who'd be reluctant to leave his homeland permanently, but he's accepted responsibility for her and will do what he needs to do - even if that means staying with Tsuyu until she's confident enough to stand on her own.

All that said, though, I think it's pretty likely nothing's going to be as neat and tidy as all that. I think the odds are strong that Tsuyu will regain her memories of being Yotsuyu. The question of what to do with her could then become a whole lot more murky - especially if she's horrified and genuinely remorseful of her past self's dark deeds.