The Journey - Is It Still Wanted?

[Kiara]

I like the idea's by HoolieWho as well but how do you deal with lvl'ing multiple jobs? One thing off hand I can think of as easy ways of dealing with breaking up the current grind even if its not very long is to have lvl cap quests like 11 had. Giving you breaks from grind party w/e.

Hi tachi,

Good point. I think you could just go through the missions / adventures again with a 2nd class if you were taking it through for EXP and going w/ friends / strangers a 2nd time.

I know I appreciated the cinematography and style in Chains of Promaethea's movies to want to see them again a 2nd or 3rd time (and it wouldn't bore me) (and people could just skip the cinematics if they wanted to).

I agree and would love to see Genkai / Level Cap Quests as well. They were a nice break from the regular progression.

[Kiara]

Would a lvl 1-10 player not feel this way if they saw a Lancer perform Choas Thrust ?

If someone ran outside Ul'dah city gates to see someone soloing a Basalisk wouldn't they be in awe ? (obviously they aren't there anymore)

You look back at FF11 with fond memories but what you are asking for isn't obtainable for you anymore, because you were new to the genre you hadn't experienced these things before so they made a much bigger impression on you. (you now look back at those same experience with nostaglia)

Sad to say you are now a jaded adventurer like the rest of us, we have seen it all pretty much.

Even if this game played exactly like FF11 we wouldn't be as awe inspired and impressed because we have been there and done it.

@HoolieWho aren't the job quests kind of similar to what you suggest, they break up the grind with a new kind of progression.

If you look at it from a new players experience, you would level to 30/15 and then go on a quest to unlock your paladin (or whatever it may be) and then every 5 levels the grind will be broken up by a different kind of progression.

The more I think about this thread the more it makes me think "wait what ??" this game doesn't have enough content for us to be inspired, nothing to work towards, of course the journey will be boring.

Hi Jinko,

Thanks for your well thought out reply.

Re: Chaos Thrust - I *still* love that new animation for Chaos Thrust even today, after seeing it for however many hundreds of times.

So, "yes" that's one of the few really bright highlights I've had in this game so far.

Certainly my "1st impression" experiences in FF XI may never be replicated again, but I'd say I had some "Oh wow! That's awesome!" moments in this game that I hope will be exceeded by 2.0:

* Seeing Sorrel Haven for the first time (with its giant Mana Tree) gave me a sense of happiness and surprise discovery when I first happened upon it.

* Wandering Mor Dhona during Fog Weather for the first time was really cool and seeing the wrecked Airship!

* The first few times fighting Batraal in Dzemael Darkhold with Uematsu-san's awesome Boss Music and just taking in the fact that there were multiple things to do in the fight (even while wiping) gave me another "cool!" moment.

I never saw the new Chaos Thrust or visited Sorrel Haven or fought Batraal until I had multiple Rank 50's already.

Perhaps part of it is serendipity or luck-of-the-draw, but I'd also think that it's the way Final Fantasy XIV was originally (poorly) designed: Piping new players through generic camp after camp (for me, Bentbranch > Emerald Moss > Tranquil), with everyone just off doing their own guildleves in a relatively safe environment, with high levels never needing to go back to earlier areas (even to pass through (since we could teleport around))...

There's nothing in this game that has the Day / Night mechanics that are as scary as Qufim Island for new adventurers (sure, some skelies may appear near Limsa sometimes, but they're so innocuous and easy to avoid that it's nothing like Qufim).

Ultimately, I definitely agree that there needs to be more inspirational content (landmarks, distinctive areas to level in, etc.) and here's to hoping that 2.0 will provide that for us.

[Kiara]

Now, to adress some of the things said in this thread.

I do agree with quite a lot of what's has been discussed here in regards to both FFXIV's lack of varied environments, sense of progression and the ridiculously easy leveling curve due to the PL craze.

However, I do NOT agree with quite a few players that keep dropping sentences like

"You need to EARN X"

"you need to work very hard to level up!"

and other similar posts.

This is a damn game and we should never "work" towards having our fun. We should have fun while "working" towards our goals. And sorry, shouting for parties for a hour, then wasting half a hour to reach the spot, kill the same crap for hours and then losing your level after getting killed by a random NM that you aggroed because of a minimal mistake is NOT fun. Okay, maybe that last part can be funny sometimes..

Anyways, yes, we should be rewarded by spending more time in the game and we should be rewarded by taking the time to do whatever time sink is imposed to us, be it a grind or whatever it is. However, said time sink SHOULD ultimately be fun. That's the proper way to do a time sink. In other words, I'm totally against grinding for grind's sake. Grinding so we "earn" the right to level up and do other content.

The bottom line is, whatever it is we are doing in this - GAME - the main objective should always be having - FUN -. Always. Yes, sometimes, you may need to do certain things to make the overall experience better, even if you don't particularly enjoy doing that activity. Be it leveling a class you don't like, or leveling a craft, whatever.

However, I think that such things should be cut out entirely whenever possible. If the community is "forcing" players to learn skills X, Y, Z to do certain content, this should be addressed by the devs in one way or another, for example. If 90% of the playerbase expects you to do or have X, then it is hardly optional.

In the same way, if the leveling process is boring as hell, this also should be addressed by the devs, but the way they seem to be dealing with in the current game (that is, removing the grind almost completely so you can skip to the end game), indeed is NOT the right way imo.

There should be a reasonable level of grinding that takes a while to reach the cap, however it must be one that makes you think "Hey, I've had a blast with this party, can't wait to be able to do X or reach the next area!" instead of "Damn...still need two more hours of this crap before calling it a day..". If at any point anyone complains about what he's currently doing in the game in that way, then the devs pretty much screwed up.

The reward, accomplishment or whatever at the end of the grind shouldn'be "I finally got past this level! Thanks god, I never have to do this crap again!".

Therefore, If SE is unable to deliver us this kind of leveling experience that is fun, engaging, reasonable and full of milestones and a good sense of progress, then don't even bother messing with the current level curve, because at the very least it allows us to skip the boring parts.

Hi AdvancedWind,

Well said.

Definitely agree that the EXP Party / "Grind" should be something inherently fun. If it's a boring process (like it is now), then it'd be tedium no matter the amount of time it took.

That's one reason why I'm so excited to see the new Skillchain / Battle Regimen 2.0 Combo System for Parties. I thought the Skillchain system (in the early days at least) was one of the best things about Final Fantasy XI. I loved coordinating with other party members and try out different Skillchains and having mages Magic Burst on to them during normal EXP Parties.

Even running Dynamis for the hundredth time and coordinating Light and Dark Skillchains was still a blast for me. (^_^)

This new Self Combo System sounds like something fun and interesting to do in Battle, so it's not just hitting "1, 1, 1, 1..." over and over. If Yoshida-san and the Battle Team continue to develop along these lines (with more Combos, Positioning, Strategy, tacking on additional Effects, melding into the New Skillchain / Battle Regimen 2.0 System for all party members to join in on), that could be the makings of something really fun to do for a long time.

Add to that, interesting, distinct environments with different dynamics (like a Qufim Island scenario) or events that might happen in real-time as you're in a new area, with interactive(?) Landmarks, etc. and we could have some meaningful, fun level progression.

[Dreamer]

This thread is a fantastic example of everything that's wrong with the FFXIV official forums. I think there are as many mudslinging posts here as there are actual substantive replies.

My .02: I don't feel that reaching max level should ever be considered any sort of achievement. That's true for traditional RPGs/MMORPGs, let alone one like FFXIV where we about 20 classes to consider. I consider excessive focus on levels to be a gameplay problem, not a merit - the game should be fun, and the only thing levels should be for is to help give the player a baseline as to what content they are are capable of doing.

[Choyi]

OP is probably one of the best posts I've read on theese forums for weeks, stirring up good ol memories of the old school MMOs and how the exploring and the grind felt like a big adventure.

While it may be tainted by nostalgia(lfp with no solo options was often a big bore) I know and remember playing EQ ,XI, etc back in the day it realy was a genuine adventure.

Todays "modern" MMOs always felt like a step backwards in that regard to me, the sense of adventure is rarely present at all after the first day or two of play and it all just feels like a race first to the level cap and then to the next pimped pixel outfit from beating up the "big bad" of the latest patch over and over again.

Without a journey the goal feels soo much less rewarding, while the current XIV couldnt support a long grind to cap I do hope to see the future 2.0 add alot more meaning to each level and more to explore while reaching thoose levels.

Best part about the grind in XI was exactly as OPs post pointed out, every 4-5 levels you got to travel to a completely new area with new(quite often reskinned crabs I know) and stronger monsters, thoose small mini goals while leveling (when I level up I can go exp in the next area!) to me made the grind felt less like just that and more of a real RPG adventure.

[Mikita]

Certainly my "1st impression" experiences in FF XI may never be replicated again, but I'd say I had some "Oh wow! That's awesome!" moments in this game that I hope will be exceeded by 2.0:

* Seeing Sorrel Haven for the first time (with its giant Mana Tree) gave me a sense of happiness and surprise discovery when I first happened upon it.

* Wandering Mor Dhona during Fog Weather for the first time was really cool and seeing the wrecked Airship!

* The first few times fighting Batraal in Dzemael Darkhold with Uematsu-san's awesome Boss Music and just taking in the fact that there were multiple things to do in the fight (even while wiping) gave me another "cool!" moment.

This is a wonderful thread. ^^

The journey made with friends is all important to me.

Some people would no doubt say I'm doing it wrong because I've been playing long hours almost every day for over a year, and I only reached Level 50 on my second battle class the other week. But I do have fun every day I log in, so even if I'm just a lousy player this is "right" for me.

I never understood all the hate towards FFXIV, but I guess it's because this is my first (and still only) MMO game. Starry eyed and new to Eorzea, I've had quite a few "Oh wow!" moments -- some of them are:

- Stumbling upon the ferry from Thanalan, and the grandeur of first setting foot in Limsa Lominsa. By chance I made my first friends there, and they are still some of my best friends today.

- Admittedly someone teleported me to Gridania the first time, but I was so amazed by its beauty that I spent a few days (earth time) just wandering and looking around the city, talking to NPCs, and exploring all the little nooks and crannies.

- First seeing the dragon and airship in Mor Dhona through the purple fog was awe inspiring. I'm still looking forward to the day when it might become more than a backdrop.

- Laying eyes on Ishgard for the first was absolutely majestic. I have a Linkshell group photo that we took there, that I will treasure forever.

There are still many things I haven't done or places I haven't been to in FFXIV, so I hope my journey will continue for many years to come. ^^

[Kiara]

OP is probably one of the best posts I've read on theese forums for weeks, stirring up good ol memories of the old school MMOs and how the exploring and the grind felt like a big adventure.

While it may be tainted by nostalgia(lfp with no solo options was often a big bore) I know and remember playing EQ ,XI, etc back in the day it realy was a genuine adventure.

Todays "modern" MMOs always felt like a step backwards in that regard to me, the sense of adventure is rarely present at all after the first day or two of play and it all just feels like a race first to the level cap and then to the next pimped pixel outfit from beating up the "big bad" of the latest patch over and over again.

Without a journey the goal feels soo much less rewarding, while the current XIV couldnt support a long grind to cap I do hope to see the future 2.0 add alot more meaning to each level and more to explore while reaching thoose levels.

Best part about the grind in XI was exactly as OPs post pointed out, every 4-5 levels you got to travel to a completely new area with new(quite often reskinned crabs I know) and stronger monsters, thoose small mini goals while leveling (when I level up I can go exp in the next area!) to me made the grind felt less like just that and more of a real RPG adventure.

Hi choyi,

Thanks for your thoughts. I feel the same way: I wish there was more of a feel of a new area to travel to and interesting monsters and reasons you want to progress and enjoy the time partying with strangers or friends. I'm glad you're hoping 2.0 also gives us a new chance to level and progress through unique areas.

[Quesse]

Guivre was Kuftal, not Gustav.

I actually don't remember many parties in Gustav, but I had tons of them in Kuftal on those crabs.

was WHM/SMN puller cuz no one else had sneak

[Davorok]

1 simple fix to achieve some of this "Journey" that we speak of is if they revised the GuildLeves in a couple of ways:

1.) GuildLeve Chains: If a particular Leve sends you to a camp, upon completion of that Leve an NPC at that camp then offers you a related Leve that sends you to a Hamlet (or outpost or cave, etc.) which upon completion starts another Leve that sends you further into the wilderness, then eventually to another Aetherite Camp in a new zone. It may be too linear for some tastes but it would give the illusion of progress.

2.) GuildLeve Bonus Runs: If you complete a 1 Star Leve and qualify for the Early Completion Bonus, an NPC at the camp is so impressed that he/she offers you another run of the same Leve but at 2 Star level. If you get the Early Completion Bonus again, you get offered a 3 star repeat, all the way up to 5 stars. You would be allowed to group up with others to continue the chain.
Imagine peeps at camps shouting for groups instead of just soloing in silence.

Yoshi has stated that GuildLeves will be the domain of Casual/Solo players but nothing has been said of any GuildLeve reforms. I hope that they have considered some of the many good suggestions from several (old) threads on these forums with regards to GuildLeve redesign.

I still think Leves can provide that sense of Adventure many of us want, if they would just take some time to improve them.

[OJtheLIONKing]

I think Davorok has some great ideas with guildleves. The Devs should look into implementing a system like that.

As far as "the journey"=xp grind...forget about it. I have nostalgic memories of FFXI too, but they're just that: nostalgia. I honestly feel a bit sick every time I see one of these "look at how great these memories from FFXI were! FFXIV should be exactly the same!" threads, because there's a few people who wholeheartedly agree, some who don't, and then the (assuming, based on some numbers about WoW's market share, that the MMO total market currently has around 20-25 million people) 95+% of MMO players who have never touched FFXI and to whom these experiences are meaningless. They're the ones that this game needs to get in order to survive.

FFXIV is its own game. FFXI was a fine game in its time, but it suffered from what all games of its generation had: too much mindless grind for the sake of grind. I rarely enjoyed an xp party, and when I did it's because I had fun with the people there--in other words, the content itself wasn't entertaining, the people were. That party could have been doing something more substantial like clearing dungeons or epic boss fights or what have you, but FFXI put tight time restrictions on being able to do interesting things like that, and forced you to grind for xp most of the time instead. Boring, soul sucking, mindless grind in a game you pay 15ish bucks a month for.

Getting to max level in an MMO isn't an accomplishment, it's the expected outcome. As such, the game should drop any pretense in its game design that it is an accomplishment (stuff like NPCs being impressed at your strength is fine). This game in particular, which has a dearth of content, would probably benefit from focusing on building the endgame, since almost all players right now have at least one class at level 50. There should definitely be content for leveling up, but it should be actual content rather than just slowing down the curve to make players "work" for it via grind parties. The game isn't a job, it's a game--if you're forced to do something you don't find fun for ages to get to the fun part, something very wrong has happened. No game can be fun at all times, but basing the game on dull grind is a big mistake.