Recurring Theme On Specific Class Demands Per Content Because of Difficulty.

[Wolfie]

There will always be classes that excel at certain fights

Why do you say this?

And why does "excelling" at a fight have to mean that every other class is nearly unusable? Why can't it be just a minor 1-5% performance increase?

[Answa]

Why do you say this?

And why does "excelling" at a fight have to mean that every other class is nearly unusable? Why can't it be just a minor 1-5% performance increase?

What.

I say it because... it's true?

Only archer is "unusable" and this is getting fixed in 1.20. It is just a minor thing. You just have to run away from Sear every 7 seconds.

[Murugan]

What.

I say it because... it's true?

Only archer is "unusable" and this is getting fixed in 1.20. It is just a minor thing. You just have to run away from Sear every 7 seconds.

I've seen archers in Darkhold gear do 12+ DPS on an Ifrit, so they are hardly "unusable" for ifrit or even a liability.

They're not doing it that way to mimic BG, they're doing it that way because it is the easiest way to do it. No one's going to intentionally make a fight harder for themselves if they don't have to. It is objectively easier to beat Ifrit using lancers as DD. That's really the only thing at play here.

Though I generally play LNC when DD'ing, I can out DPS most random Lancers as a MRD, and though I haven't played pugilist one in my LS out damages most LNC parses I have seen from other "elite" linkshells.

I do think people do it to "mimic" videos they saw online, and in doing it they don't realize how much of an affect player skill has on the fight versus what classes everyone plays.

What I mean is it is objectively easier to beat Ifrit using 5 pugilists who know how to play well, than your average Lancer. Classes could be balanced better, but that doesn't negate the fact that some people in this community are just terrible at the game and like to blame balance/mechanics for that.

[Rentahamster]

What I mean is it is objectively easier to beat Ifrit using 5 pugilists who know how to play well, than your average Lancer.

Yes, it would be easier, but that is because you're taking player skill into account. Good players will always do better than bad players.

Player skill is a diverse variable, so in an analysis of balance, that has to be the variable that you control for. Everything else being equal, when considering players of the same skill level, they will have an easier time as a lancer as opposed to any other DD class.

[Murugan]

Yes, it would be easier, but that is because you're taking player skill into account. Good players will always do better than bad players.

Player skill is a diverse variable, so in an analysis of balance, that has to be the variable that you control for. Everything else being equal, when considering players of the same skill level, they will have an easier time as a lancer as opposed to any other DD class.

Which is not the point of this thread, the OP claims that most people only have one class to 50 (which I doubt is true any longer) and so they can't even do this content because it is Lancer only.

That is simply not true. It doesn't matter if someone is playing LNC or Pugilist, they will lose the fight (or be a liability) if they don't play their class well. Just being a Lancer doesn't make Ifrit "easy mode", and a good pugilist will be better than most average Lancers so if a person only has Pugilist or simply wants to play Pugilist the most I see no issue with that because it is not a liability.

They have said for a long time that they are balancing the classes, but people who blame prohibitively difficult mechanics for them "not being able to play a certain class" are wrong. As someone who has put together countless groups for Ifrit I know when a person is contributing to a fight, and every class is certainly capable of that on Ifrit. So no the content doesn't discriminate against certain classes.

There is a difference between that, and admitting that yes Lancer is obviously overpowered doing the most damage and being able to sit outside aoe range with a proc heal.

[Rentahamster]

Which is not the point of this thread, the OP claims that most people only have one class to 50 (which I doubt is true any longer) and so they can't even do this content because it is Lancer only.

And that's not what I was saying, either. I know you can do Ifrit without lancers. This is the core issue:

Ask yourself this - All other things like player skill being equal, if the ARC, MRD, and PGL could parse the same DPS as lancers in the Ifrit fight with the same amount of effort and difficulty, would we have this issue?

No, we wouldn't.

OP is right that it is a design problem. Other posters are right that this is also a community problem. It's both. BUT, the genesis of the community problem is the design problem. There would be no community problem if there was no design problem to begin with.

"lancers do more damage and are safer"

This is the start of the problem, and it leads to -

"I only want lancers in my party"

[Clydey]

I've seen archers in Darkhold gear do 12+ DPS on an Ifrit, so they are hardly "unusable" for ifrit or even a liability.



Though I generally play LNC when DD'ing, I can out DPS most random Lancers as a MRD, and though I haven't played pugilist one in my LS out damages most LNC parses I have seen from other "elite" linkshells.

I do think people do it to "mimic" videos they saw online, and in doing it they don't realize how much of an affect player skill has on the fight versus what classes everyone plays.

What I mean is it is objectively easier to beat Ifrit using 5 pugilists who know how to play well, than your average Lancer. Classes could be balanced better, but that doesn't negate the fact that some people in this community are just terrible at the game and like to blame balance/mechanics for that.

If your PGLs are out DPSing Lancers of certain linkshells, those linkshells aren't elite. The cooldown on Victimize kills PGL DPS.

[Murugan]

If your PGLs are out DPSing Lancers of certain linkshells, those linkshells aren't elite. The cooldown on Victimize kills PGL DPS.

Well I've seen certain parses paraded out in numerous threads in this forum from shells bragging about getting the short work achievement with lancers parsing a "measly" 16-18 DPS. I've seen PGL that could definitely have out parsed those.

I agree, but its hard to avoid cookie cutter setups, if SE keeps adding cookie cutter dungeons.

and thats the problem.

It's not a cookie cutter fight. My god, sear is not that hard to heal through.

[Rentahamster]

Well I've seen certain parses paraded out in numerous threads in this forum from shells bragging about getting the short work achievement with lancers parsing a "measly" 16-18 DPS. I've seen PGL that could definitely have out parsed those.

Of course you have. We all have. Outparsing a lancer is of course possible. No one's arguing that.

The point is:

Given two players of the same skill, the lancer will nearly always outparse the PGL/MRD/ARC on Ifrit.

[Clydey]

Well I've seen certain parses paraded out in numerous threads in this forum from shells bragging about getting the short work achievement with lancers parsing a "measly" 16-18 DPS. I've seen PGL that could definitely have out parsed those.

To be honest, 18 dps may be close to the PGL ceiling on Ifrit. For a LNC, 18 dps is below average, even in a fight with a lot of jumps. I haven't seen all of the parses other linkshells have posted, but I'd be surprised if any elite LS was bragging about those numbers.