[spoiler] empire might vs eorzea might

[Belhi]

Yeah that is a valid point Hinoto-no-Ryuji. For a primal to have sucked the Aether from the land a primal would have had to be summoned in the first place.

Regardless in this particular case it seems to have been the primals in Eorzea that lead to the Empire ceasing any further conquest until they could find an effective strategy to counter them.

Tbh I think that garlean R&D is a bit too fast for the alliance to keep up with, during raubanh extreme that magitek suit was considered a prototype but at the time of the doman liberation it was already mass produced, later in castrum we yet see more new models and I can already see inferno appearing later as the magitek behemoth or something.
I'm not really seeing this advancement on the alliance front tbh, the only reason why we win is because it's our story, but the alliance as a whole is kinda a failure as a force.
Besides how can the alliance approach the heart of the empire if we assume that they have fortified their borders with cannons like the one in castrum abania? Or do we need to suppose Estinien is gonna take them out all of them for us if they do idd exist?

Its a valid point. However its worth noting that Doma Castle was also an R&D facility of the 12th Legion who seem to have been behind the development of the new Magitech.

I think both sides are evolving pretty quickly. Considering the Grand Companies are really only a few years old they have progressed very quickly into well ordered and functional armies. More over we see across the Job quests all the Grand Companies taking up old and new disciplines.

The Maelstrom now has a unit trained as Warriors and Limsa's martial schools have had the strategies and techniques of the Royal Marines introduced even if we haven't seen any other scholars yet. Further the Rogues guild has apparently been having members taught techniques by Yugiri during her stay (though admittedly Captian Jacke shows no sign of having learn anything new).

Ul'dah's Paladin order has been growing in strength recently with a substancial influx of new members. In addition to that they now have a unit of summoners. While Black magic is still forbidden the first signs that under careful selection there may be a time where Black Mages will find a place serving Eorzea's interests again.

Ishgard already had a well trained army of knights and Dragoons (who are now starting to rebuild relations with dragonkind). On top of that the training of Astrologians is well under way and gaining popularity as is the Machinist profession among the common classes. While they might not be quite the R&D machine Garlemald is, the engineers of Ishgard are always developing and improving their tech. Considering how new they are they have come in leaps and bounds.

In Gridania the first signs of the Bard Job being integrated into units has started. If it became wide spread this would greatly increase the effectiveness of Gridania's rank and file. White magic is still restricted but the Padjal are becoming more proactive.

Finally Ala Mhigo doesn't have a standing army but we see the current members of both the Fist of Rhalgr and the Crimson Duelists looking to start rebuilding their order.

Perhaps it might not be the same as Garlemald but we definitely see a steady increase in the military capacity and strength of the Eorzean Alliance's forces. That said, they still really wouldn't stand a chance actually trying to invade Ishgard.

[Cilia]

... Garlean oppression, aggressive conquest and abuse seems to predate all that so I wouldn't call it a wide ranging excuse of the Garlean Empire's policies since its founding. I wonder if Solus took over through coup or through political means? The lore book doesn't state, just that he over through the leadership of the republic to establish the current Imperial structure.

This is why I have such disdain for the Empire. Decisively dealing with the primals is simply a convenient excuse for Imperial conquest; the brutality and enforced atheism cannot be accounted for, though.

Given Solus' rise to power is heavily inspired by Julius Caesar, one can only surmise that his accomplishments on the battlefield gave Solus the support of the common people, and so when he crowned himself Emperor there was little outcry. (I believe the Lore Book says this in his bio, though I cannot verify as I do not own one.)

... (a) Primals had been summoned on Hydaelyn between the fall of Allag and the battle of Silvertear Skies, and (b) that one said summoning - or its aftermath! - heavily inspired Garlean expansionist policy.

The first point is true.

The second is highly debatable if not entirely false. By the time the Empire encountered a primal, it had already conquered all of Ilsabard. It was when Solus set his sights on Othard that first primal was summoned against Imperial forces. Thus, one can only surmise that quelling the primal threat is simply a convenient excuse for Imperial expansionism (or: the Empire would still be conquering more territory even if primals weren't a threat).

Ironically, this means that Imperial goals and Imperial means are contradictory - attacking other nations in the name of preventing summonings causes them to happen in response to the attack, creating a self-reinforcing feedback loop.

[Hinoto-no-Ryuji]

The second is highly debatable if not entirely false. By the time the Empire encountered a primal, it had already conquered all of Ilsabard. It was when Solus set his sights on Othard that first primal was summoned against Imperial forces. Thus, one can only surmise that quelling the primal threat is simply a convenient excuse for Imperial expansionism (or: the Empire would still be conquering more territory even if primals weren't a threat).

Ironically, this means that Imperial goals and Imperial means are contradictory - attacking other nations in the name of preventing summonings causes them to happen in response to the attack, creating a self-reinforcing feedback loop.

Perhaps “inspired” was the wrong word. I should clarify: I didn’t mean “inspired it from the word go”, I meant “inspired it after encountering them” - that is to say, considering that avoiding the need to deal with Primals was a major consideration when planning the approach to Eorzea, and that the existence of Primals also worked its way into Imperial rhetoric and raison de guerre, I’d say that their expansionist policy as it exists now was born of Primal encounter.

[Theodric]

Garlemald's initial expansion, at least, was a matter of reclaiming lost territory and striking back at those that had persecuted them. To understand Garlemald, one needs to put themselves in the shoes of a race that lack the ability to manipulate aether and have been forced to carve out a living for themselves in a harsh wasteland. Their time enduring such a lifestyle hardened them, which should not at all be surprising. Nor should it be surprising for people pushed around to lash out in response to persecution and abuse...which works both ways, as we see with Garlemald and with the people living in Gyr Abania/Yanxia.

It is also likely that some of the aggressive expansion is driven by a fear of being persecuted once more, thus creating a cycle that needs to be broken in a way that does not simply result in that happening. As for their policy on Eikons, it is admirable - aside from the methods used. Yet objectively, having seen what Lakshmi and her followers were capable of back in 4.1's MSQ's it is not hard to realise just how terrifying and damaging Eikons/Primals can be. They're not simply conjured forth by battle, either - selfish, powerful individuals could easily gather the resources required to arrange for a city to be destroyed from the inside out if given the opportunity. The Warrior of Light is, at present, a luxury only some have been able to lean upon. Those who do not have the convenience of the Warrior of Light are forced to rely on either submitting, fleeing their homes, fighting back (with a very high cost) or relying on grim but effective preventative methods.

[ObsidianFire]

Solus was the first person in power who saw what the ceruleum engine could lead to verses Garlamald's enemies. He was the one who pushed for it's further development into magitek weapons and integrated it into the military. He's pretty much responsible for the entire tech revolution that put Garlamald on even footing with the rest of the world, which to be honest, they really needed. Only once that had happened, he went further and started using magitck to expand Garlemald's borders. By the time he went to take over Dalmasca, the Garlean people all but asked him to become Emperor.

It should be noted the most of the democratic functions of the Garlean government are still in place (even though their influence is very limited) and that their republic had been around for 500 years before it became a dictatorship. It also should be noted that the entire reason the republic existed in the first place was to expel foreign invaders from Garlamald and that other countries never actually stopped trying to invade it until magitek was invented and it invaded them in turn. To say Garlemald's situation is complicated is a vast understatement.

[Remedi]

Its a valid point. However its worth noting that Doma Castle was also an R&D facility of the 12th Legion who seem to have been behind the development of the new Magitech.

I think both sides are evolving pretty quickly. Considering the Grand Companies are really only a few years old they have progressed very quickly into well ordered and functional armies. More over we see across the Job quests all the Grand Companies taking up old and new disciplines.

The Maelstrom now has a unit trained as Warriors and Limsa's martial schools have had the strategies and techniques of the Royal Marines introduced even if we haven't seen any other scholars yet. Further the Rogues guild has apparently been having members taught techniques by Yugiri during her stay (though admittedly Captian Jacke shows no sign of having learn anything new).

Ul'dah's Paladin order has been growing in strength recently with a substancial influx of new members. In addition to that they now have a unit of summoners. While Black magic is still forbidden the first signs that under careful selection there may be a time where Black Mages will find a place serving Eorzea's interests again.

Ishgard already had a well trained army of knights and Dragoons (who are now starting to rebuild relations with dragonkind). On top of that the training of Astrologians is well under way and gaining popularity as is the Machinist profession among the common classes. While they might not be quite the R&D machine Garlemald is, the engineers of Ishgard are always developing and improving their tech. Considering how new they are they have come in leaps and bounds.

In Gridania the first signs of the Bard Job being integrated into units has started. If it became wide spread this would greatly increase the effectiveness of Gridania's rank and file. White magic is still restricted but the Padjal are becoming more proactive.

Finally Ala Mhigo doesn't have a standing army but we see the current members of both the Fist of Rhalgr and the Crimson Duelists looking to start rebuilding their order.

Perhaps it might not be the same as Garlemald but we definitely see a steady increase in the military capacity and strength of the Eorzean Alliance's forces. That said, they still really wouldn't stand a chance actually trying to invade Ishgard.

The Problem as I said it's the speed of their R&D and how they actively try to improve on oppositions. As said the armor that we see at the start of the exp is already mass produced by the end of it, even the magitek armored weapon that was a new sight in the wall has become already a standard unit, also let's not forget that they are plating all their armors with magic resistant alloys (gilded magitek armor).

I wouldn't say that the jobs progressions on the city state of eorzea is really proceeding at the same speed which that as I said it's the problem, not to mention that they lack completely in air superiority unless we count dragons, but given hrasvelgr characters I don't see that happening soon besides given garlemand fixation with allagans tech it's not so impossible they might repurpose neurolinks.

That said Even with jobs added to the ranks, they are not the wol, they are effectively cannon fodder, they are essentially swordfighters hurling themselves against tanks, we've seen with the battle of castellum velodya that if it wasn't for the us steamrolling fordola, Raubanh would've forced to retreat, same with the siege of ala mhigo were everything was saved by the timely arrival of the yols or the alliance would've been gunned down by the air armors, actually that clearly shows how unprepaired the entire alliance really is with a full scale war with garlemand, forgetting about their Air force was a terrible mistake

[Belhi]

Garlemald's initial expansion, at least, was a matter of reclaiming lost territory and striking back at those that had persecuted them. To understand Garlemald, one needs to put themselves in the shoes of a race that lack the ability to manipulate aether and have been forced to carve out a living for themselves in a harsh wasteland. Their time enduring such a lifestyle hardened them, which should not at all be surprising. Nor should it be surprising for people pushed around to lash out in response to persecution and abuse...which works both ways, as we see with Garlemald and with the people living in Gyr Abania/Yanxia.

It is also likely that some of the aggressive expansion is driven by a fear of being persecuted once more, thus creating a cycle that needs to be broken in a way that does not simply result in that happening. As for their policy on Eikons, it is admirable - aside from the methods used. Yet objectively, having seen what Lakshmi and her followers were capable of back in 4.1's MSQ's it is not hard to realise just how terrifying and damaging Eikons/Primals can be. They're not simply conjured forth by battle, either - selfish, powerful individuals could easily gather the resources required to arrange for a city to be destroyed from the inside out if given the opportunity. The Warrior of Light is, at present, a luxury only some have been able to lean upon. Those who do not have the convenience of the Warrior of Light are forced to rely on either submitting, fleeing their homes, fighting back (with a very high cost) or relying on grim but effective preventative methods.

The argument over reclaiming lands, and I would point out it is bit of a stretch since your talking about land they were driven out of over 200 years before Ala Mhigo was even founded, would have been retaken in some of the very first conquests. It seems unlikely that the Garleans were driven from the very southern reaches of Ilsebard to the very northern ones. More over, it sounds like the Garleans offered a lot more carrot along with their stick back then. The improvements to quality of life from Magitech was a big attraction to many living in the conquered lands which helped the Garleans build up their army so quickly. Also being on the receiving end of abuse doesn't really justify being abusive, it just explains it.

One of the reasons I really hope we go to Garlemald next is to get a chance to see the Garlean mindset more clearly. There is a lot to suggest that while Garleans value unity, they are a people with very strong differences in views, attitudes and beliefs and not at all above fighting over those things amongst themselves. In essence they are people. I think it will also be interesting to see the Ironworks crew in their native culture if they come along. Biggs and Wedge come from annexed lands and the lowest classes while Jesse and Cid come from higher in the social caste system. All of them however chose the path they did out of a strong viewpoint that clashed with the imperial doctrine.

Given Solus' rise to power is heavily inspired by Julius Caesar, one can only surmise that his accomplishments on the battlefield gave Solus the support of the common people, and so when he crowned himself Emperor there was little outcry. (I believe the Lore Book says this in his bio, though I cannot verify as I do not own one.)

Solus did have popular support after the success his new magitech forces showed. My only comment was if the leaders of the republic recognised the way the wind was blowing and handed over the power when he asked for it or wether he did it by force. Since the senate does still exist I supposed it quite probably was the first.

[FelixDaCat]

IMO, the Empire in the game are pretty much like the Empire/First Order from Star Wars and we are the Rebellion. Things really match well with the game and Star Wars. Instead of "The Force" we have the "Echo". The Empire rely too heavily on their technology and conscripts, who loath the Empire they have to fight for in the first place, whereas we have worked our way out through countless trials, to become highly skilled and motivated as we are fighting for our homeland and the freedom of everyone Elorsia.

[Kallera]

IMO, the Empire in the game are pretty much like the Empire/First Order from Star Wars and we are the Rebellion. Things really match well with the game and Star Wars. Instead of "The Force" we have the "Echo". The Empire rely too heavily on their technology and conscripts, who loath the Empire they have to fight for in the first place, whereas we have worked our way out through countless trials, to become highly skilled and motivated as we are fighting for our homeland and the freedom of everyone Elorsia.

Which is kinda why I DON’T want to see the Garlean empire be destroyed, despite some difficult signs pointing towards not only this, but having no actual Garleans around at ALL. Its an utterly boring end to an people that have spent half the time defeating themselves, and the other half doing showpieces of how mean and unscrupulous they are. In stories like this, there is always this urge by the writers to make people of “the empire”, just not act like people, unless they are defectors or some aid to the hero.