[spoiler] empire might vs eorzea might

[Belhi]

According to the Lore book (which I referenced for my entire post) the Beastmen started summoning their Primals right after the Battle for Silvertear sky, where Midgardsormr and the Garlean fleet fought.

To quote the relevant section:
"Not long after Midgardsormr's demise, something unexplained occurred. Eorzea's beast tribes began summoning their own gods - the "primals" - into the corporeal realm. Dubbed "eikons" by the Garleans who questioned their divine origins, these powerful creatures were deemed a threat to imperial rule and soon made a target of its armies. XIVth Legion legatus, Gaius van Baelsar, quickly observed the futility of engaging the eikons in battle, as the vanquished "gods" were brought back time and again through the use of crystals and prayer. Moreover, there were increasing reports that the "blessings" of these primal beings were transforming men into fanatics who would turn on their own kind in the names of their new rulers. Without a proper military strategy to address the eikon threat, Emperor Solus zos Galvus would eventually order Baelsar to suspend the Eorzean campaign." Page 38, Encyclopaedia Eorzea.

While the failed first invasion did force them to pull back momentarily, it was the rise of the primal threat that caused Garlemald to call of any further invasion attempts, at least until they could find a solution to the primal problem.

Nael came to the attention of the emperor with his successful conquests in Orthad. As the emperor was looking for a why to deal with the primals and annex Eorzea Nael came to him with a potential solution. In his families archive of Allag records they had found evidence that Dalamud was actually a Allag satellite of extraordinary power. The Garleans first attempts to contact Dalamud resulted in the Bozja Citidel where the lunar transmitter was situated and the city around it being vaporised, along with Cid's dad. This put the Emperor of the idea but Nael convinced the emperor to reconsider by suggesting drawing this power down on Eorzea to resolve the stalemate there. Thus Nael, with the emperor's blessing, instigated the Meteor project.

Relevant quote:
"Neal van Darnus, however, was not yet ready to abandon his obsession with the Meteor Project, refusing to allow the efforts of House Darnus to be left for naught. After learning of his deployment to Eorzea, van Darnus knew his wait was over and seized upon the opportunity to appeal to the Emperor regarding the merits of resurrecting the project, claiming he had discovered a means by which to successfully control Dalamud. After enduring a decade-long stalemate on the Eorzean front, the aged Emperor, impatient to solidify his legacy before his death, had once again become willing to entertain the notion of a realm-wide "cleansing' of the beastmen and their eikons. Thus the second phase of the Meteor Project was commenced." Page 41, Encyclopaedia Eorzea

In short that means what happened in 1.0 was a mission by the Garlean Empire to do pretty much exactly what Nael set out to do, pull down Dalamud, with authorisation by the Emperor. Gaius didn't like the idea as he wanted there to be something to conquer but since the orders were from the Emperor he didn't have much choice. Every Garlean incursion in 1.0 wasn't part of an invasion but to set up what was required to carry out the Meteor project. The lore book also states it was mostly the 7th Legion that was involved in incursions in Eorzea. The 14th mostly stayed in support in Ala Mhigo.

MORE TO COME.

[VargasVermillion]

Which then raises the question of why they were conquered in the first place. If Doma and Ala Mhigo weren't able to provide much for the Empire, why conquer them at all (beyond Ala Mhigo's strategic value as a gateway to the rest of Eorzea)?

Garlemald wants to have all the continents under it's wing and I assume if they succeeded they would look for more continents to absorb. It's been confirmed they have no interest in islands which is why hingashi is relatively safe and even trades with them. It wouldn't surprise me if the magitek they got was inspired by garlean designs since garlemald deals technology to island nations to help fund their conquest.

[Hinoto-no-Ryuji]

snip

I'm not sure what sources you're using (just 1.x cutscenes?), but you're seriously underestimating the prominence of Primals in Garlean Eorzea campaign. In fact, Primals were the reason they sent such a huge force to take Silvertear in the first place - after taking heavy losses to Primals in their conquest of Othard, they wanted to secure the enormous aether supply under Silvertear to ensure that such beings wouldn't be an issue in Eorzea. And when they not only failed to do that but actually made it easier for Eorzean beastmen to summon their gods, the whole campaign was put on hold. Sure, the XIVth Legion suffered some pretty big losses, but Garlemald as a whole was hardly licking its wounds. No, the reason they pulled back was strategic - to find a solution to Primals, implement it, and then re-start their expansion into Aldenard. The Meteor Project was supposed to be one such solution; Ultima, another (albeit one unsanctioned by the Emperor). As it stands, Garlemald isn't willing to expand into territories where Primals can be used against them.

Give this a read - it lays out the whole of 1.x's story, including what I posted above, and it's endorsed by the dev team to boot.

[silentwindfr]

"Not long after Midgardsormr's demise, something unexplained occurred. Eorzea's beast tribes began summoning their own gods - the "primals" - into the corporeal realm. Dubbed "eikons" by the Garleans who questioned their divine origins, these powerful creatures were deemed a threat to imperial rule and soon made a target of its armies. XIVth Legion legatus, Gaius van Baelsar, quickly observed the futility of engaging the eikons in battle, as the vanquished "gods" were brought back time and again through the use of crystals and prayer. Moreover, there were increasing reports that the "blessings" of these primal beings were transforming men into fanatics who would turn on their own kind in the names of their new rulers. Without a proper military strategy to address the eikon threat, Emperor Solus zos Galvus would eventually order Baelsar to suspend the Eorzean campaign." Page 38, Encyclopaedia Eorzea.

Eorzean beast tribes, not the empire, like said the loose of the fleet did leave them in dire situation, unable to cope with this sort of thing, when they did stop the invasion plan, because with a diminish air fleet it was unable to be sure to suppress the beastman without heavy loose. what i have said all a long. most of the whole fleet was destroyed by midgardsorm... it was a huge blows, since the emperor was a smart man, he was wanting to have enough troops for face the beastman and them eikon, that why the second invasion was soo long later.

your second quote one more time go in my sense, nael objective was different of gaius, yes, the emperor did acknowledge nael plan, but gaius and nael have two different objective, in the quest it's often appear that the two have conflict over them position and how do it.

Giaus is the leader of the 14th legion, i doubt another general of legion did leave his legion without show up.
and in V1 only gaius and nael was shown.

you read the lore book that nice, but personally i did experience this stuff.

I'm not sure what sources you're using (just 1.x cutscenes?), but you're seriously underestimating the prominence of Primals in Garlean Eorzea campaign. In fact, Primals were the reason they sent such a huge force to take Silvertear in the first place - after taking heavy losses to Primals in their conquest of Othard, they wanted to secure the enormous aether supply under Silvertear to ensure that such beings wouldn't be an issue in Eorzea. And when they not only failed to do that but actually made it easier for Eorzean beastmen to summon their gods, the whole campaign was put on hold. Sure, the XIVth Legion suffered some pretty big losses, but Garlemald as a whole was hardly licking its wounds. No, the reason they pulled back was strategic - to find a solution to Primals, implement it, and then re-start their expansion into Aldenard. The Meteor Project was supposed to be one such solution; Ultima, another (albeit one unsanctioned by the Emperor). As it stands, Garlemald isn't willing to expand into territories where Primals can be used against them.

Give this a read - it lays out the whole of 1.x's story, including what I posted above, and it's endorsed by the dev team to boot.

simply no, the eikon (aka primal) was freed at the battle of silvertear... not before. one more time it's show in the first opening trailer of FF14, that the event that did lead to our situation, midgarsorm was keeping the seal, but when he did "die" the seal was broken and the eikon was freed.
here the opening part covering silvertear: https://youtu.be/Bvu87PD_BTc?t=235
you will notice after the flagship and midgarsorm are exploding some light leave and inside them you can see ifrit, titan and such... that the eikon liberation. the fleet was that important simply because the empire was wanting a fast invasion. with the different city states far below them in terms of technology and troops it was deemed easy... but well.

before Silvertear, no eikon was summoned, since they was all sealed since the allagan times... same the beastman didn't summon them directly, since like said you need 2 element for a summoning, prayer and a large quantity of crystal, without both you can't do it!

[Hinoto-no-Ryuji]

you read the lore book that nice, but personally i did experience this stuff.

Anyone who has seen the cutscenes of 1.x has "lived it" as much as you have. Everyone you're arguing with here has not only done that, but has also read a fair number of interviews, the article I linked you (did you read it? It's an official account of events), and the Encyclopedia Eorzea. And I'm telling you, as Belhi and others are, that the Primals have been a major factor in the Garlean Empire's conquests since well before Silvertear. This isn't a guess on our part - it's a widely-accepted fact within the game's lore, outright stated by multiple official sources.

simply no, the eikon (aka primal) was freed at the battle of silvertear... not before. one more time it's show in the first opening trailer of FF14, that the event that did lead to our situation, midgarsorm was keeping the seal, but when he did "die" the seal was broken and the eikon was freed.
here the opening part covering silvertear: https://youtu.be/Bvu87PD_BTc?t=235
you will notice after the flagship and midgarsorm are exploding some light leave and inside them you can see ifrit, titan and such... that the eikon liberation.

If that image of the Primals "escaping" was ever completely literal, it has since been somewhat retconned into a metaphorical image - with the reserves under Silvertear burst, aether was now flowing far more freely across the land, making it easier than ever to summon. But it wasn't impossible to do beforehand; they weren't "locked away", or whatever, they just required an amount of aether that was previously extremely difficult to get, and afterwards wasn't, so they were freed in the sense that the Beastmen could now summon them freely.

before Silvertear, no eikon was summoned, since they was all sealed since the allagan times... same the beastman didn't summon them directly, since like said you need 2 element for a summoning, prayer and a large quantity of crystal, without both you can't do it!

Again, did you read the summary I linked before? It is now considered canon that the Empire encountered Primals on Othard, before they ever set foot on Eorzea.

(Also, you don't need crystals specifically. Aether is the key word here. Crystals are just solidified aether; they're a convenient source, but any will do).

[Belhi]

The issue was never lacking the troops. It was lacking an effective strategy. Why do you think Gaius waited till he had the Ultima Weapon to move to conquer Eorzea? He (and Garlemald in general) were seeking a way to effectively counter primals in a more permanent fashion after learning that the Allag had done so. It was the lack of an effective strategy which stopped further invasion, not lack of numbers. It took 10 years from the battle of Silvertear Sky to the Meteor project. An empire the size of Garlemald doesn't take that long to send reinforcements.

The Emperor approved the Meteor project. Are you suggesting he sent Gaius to invade a land he was about to inflict a 'realm-wide cleansing' on? The lore book pretty explicitly states that almost all incursions were by the 7th Legion, not the 14th. The 14th was also not present on the field at the Battle for Cartenueau. The forces there were the 7th legion, apparently sent by their now dead leader, to insure there was no interference with the decent of Dalamud. Gaius himself was the one who warned the Eorzean Alliance about the presence on the battle field. Gaius himself however did not invade Eorzea at any time during the lead up to the fall of Dalamud. Instead it was after when the realm was in a shambles that he sent his legion to establish his network of Castrums.

I can't find any reference to orders from the Emperor for Gaius to invade during the Meteor Project or really any evidence they he even tried. Castrum Novum was 7th Legion. Darkhold and Toto-rak were 7th Legion. Cartenueau was 7th Legion. The lore book explicitly states this.

The lore book was written by Oda and translated by Koji. I think it is reasonably legit in how canon it is.

Anyone who has seen the cutscenes of 1.x has "lived it" as much as you have. Everyone you're arguing with here has not only done that, but has also read a fair number of interviews, the article I linked you (did you read it? It's an official account of events), and the Encyclopedia Eorzea. And I'm telling you, as Belhi and others are, that the Primals have been a major factor in the Garlean Empire's conquests since well before Silvertear. This isn't a guess on our part - it's a widely-accepted fact within the game's lore, outright stated by multiple official sources.

Actually the lore book seems to imply that the Empire wasn't used to dealing with Primals when they ran into them in Eorzea. Rather the anti Eikon attitude of the Garleans was founded after Solus saw the damage that a primal had done to the land, sucking the life out of it and turning it into a wasteland. I think Eorzea was where they really started to face them in combat though.

That said, the sudden frequency of summoning of primals in Eorzea seem to be as much due to the Ascians teaching the Beast tribes summoning rituals Silvertear exploding. We don't honestly know what is/was under Silvertear. From what we know of primals it seems odd that the literal primals we face were there as they are shaped by the beliefs of the beast tribes that summon them and it seems unlikely that Titan was summoned prior to Silvertear, particularly if no primals had been summoned since the times of Allag (which may or may not be true). I can't of the top of my head thing of one. Technically one could be as all it requires is belief and enough Aether.

[Theodric]

Given that Varis is even more passionate about dealing with Primals/Eikons than Solus I can't help but suspect that there is much more to it all - a piece of the puzzle that we do not yet know. Varis seems to be convinced that Hydaelyn as a whole - which he refers to as a 'Star' - suffers immensely and risks being snuffed out as a result of the summoning process. He isn't wrong, either. Yet he seems to know a lot of the same things that the Warrior of Light has come to know. A certain shadowy figure cannot be wholly responsible for that knowledge, either, as it appears as though Varis has only been dealing with him recently due to the lack of trust and familiarity. My guess is that a lot of the information came about through Allagan records.

[Belhi]

Given that Varis is even more passionate about dealing with Primals/Eikons than Solus I can't help but suspect that there is much more to it all - a piece of the puzzle that we do not yet know. Varis seems to be convinced that Hydaelyn as a whole - which he refers to as a 'Star' - suffers immensely and risks being snuffed out as a result of the summoning process. He isn't wrong, either. Yet he seems to know a lot of the same things that the Warrior of Light has come to know. A certain shadowy figure cannot be wholly responsible for that knowledge, either, as it appears as though Varis has only been dealing with him recently due to the lack of trust and familiarity. My guess is that a lot of the information came about through Allagan records.

I agree. Varis may know a lot more than we are aware of. He may even know more than us. That said, we still might not agree with his plans or we might end up knowing something crucial that he has missed. Varis is marked as a brilliant strategist and tactician so his actions and plans are almost certainly very deliberately thought out. I said this before but Varis's more tyrannical approach may have more to do with felling he has to do whatever is necessary to prepare/use his empire to deal with the threat to Hydaelyn than any particular leanings towards tyranny.

That said, Garlean oppression, aggressive conquest and abuse seems to predate all that so I wouldn't call it a wide ranging excuse of the Garlean Empire's policies since its founding. I wonder if Solus took over through coup or through political means? The lore book doesn't state, just that he over through the leadership of the republic to establish the current Imperial structure.

[Hinoto-no-Ryuji]

Actually the lore book seems to imply that the Empire wasn't used to dealing with Primals when they ran into them in Eorzea. Rather the anti Eikon attitude of the Garleans was founded after Solus saw the damage that a primal had done to the land, sucking the life out of it and turning it into a wasteland. I think Eorzea was where they really started to face them in combat though.

Sure. My point was that (a) Primals had been summoned on Hydaelyn between the fall of Allag and the battle of Silvertear Skies, and (b) that one said summoning - or its aftermath! - heavily inspired Garlean expansionist policy.

From what we know of primals it seems odd that the literal primals we face were there as they are shaped by the beliefs of the beast tribes that summon them and it seems unlikely that Titan was summoned prior to Silvertear...

And that’s why that sequence pretty much has to be metaphorical.

...particularly if no primals had been summoned since the times of Allag (which may or may not be true). I can't of the top of my head thing of one. Technically one could be as all it requires is belief and enough Aether.

That’s another point though - at least one obviously was, as it (or its effects) set Garlemald on a very specific crusade against them before they set foot on Eorzea. I suppose it’s possible that said effects were experienced either through archaeology or old chronicles of the matter, but given Koji’s enthusiastic endorsement of Rise and Fall and lack of evidence otherwise, it’s hard to lend that idea much credence.

[Remedi]

Tbh I think that garlean R&D is a bit too fast for the alliance to keep up with, during raubanh extreme that magitek suit was considered a prototype but at the time of the doman liberation it was already mass produced, later in castrum we yet see more new models and I can already see inferno appearing later as the magitek behemoth or something.
I'm not really seeing this advancement on the alliance front tbh, the only reason why we win is because it's our story, but the alliance as a whole is kinda a failure as a force.
Besides how can the alliance approach the heart of the empire if we assume that they have fortified their borders with cannons like the one in castrum abania? Or do we need to suppose Estinien is gonna take them out all of them for us if they do idd exist?