"The Consequences of Reducing the Skill Gap" (A Video Relevant to the 4.0 Changes)

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

The only frontline mode that encouraged player vs player was slaughter, and that mode was removed. In every other mode the objectives far outweigh player kills. Seize was the worst PvP mode. Teams would afk and 'defend' their tomelith, they don't even have to dps it; just tag it and afk. Shatter fixed this by making people actually have to do something other than tag nodes and afk, but people complained that they wanted to afk like in seize. Hence the bots.

How wrong you are. Seize is the mode that encouraged more active engagement than anything. The only time you could ever possibly rest easy is if you have a lead and the other teams are fighting each other over a node. It wasn't enough to capture a node, you had to defend it, and you had to do so wisely. Shatter had the mistaken idea of "base guards" (many of which I personally just took out for the free 5 points and capped their base anyways). And while Secure was predominantly base capping, there were the nodes in the center that gave extra points (and brought the teams to one central location to battle). Shatter - and I've said this many times - played like a mix of Secure and Seize, but in all the wrong ways. You didn't have to defend ice (you could defend ice by actively attacking the other players, but most mindlessly zerged for the points).

So no, trying to afk and defend in any of those modes was always a bad idea, but it was especially bad in Seize. I say that seeing people who are largely used to Shatter try to do that in Seize these days, then wonder why they're in last place.

[uvuvwevwevweonyetenyevweugwemu]

I created signal macros and shared them to my friends.

I like your emote signals (sort of scope-like) but I rather use signed signals since I can't switch target as quick with emote. I use /slap to indicate to healers that I'm being bursted down and they need to watch my back.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Oh these were basic chat macros, like "enemy spotted @ <pos>. Split up and move to the next objective" with a sound effect.

Like quick chat, but before that horrible idea was rammed down everyone's throats.

[funkman]

I like Shatter & disliked PvP in ARR, so I'm part of the problem? It's that kind of condescending elitism that gives all PvPers a bad name. I'm sorry that your glory days have passed you by, Lace, and your unwillingness to do anything but complain about how much better things were is really tiring. I think PvP, much like anything else in this game, is what you make of it. You can choose to have fun with what you're given, or you can sulk. But frankly, it's less fun to deal with people who don't want to do anything but talk down to people trying to enjoy what PvP is now - and not what it might have been once...

[Wintersandman]

I like Shatter & disliked PvP in ARR, so I'm part of the problem? It's that kind of condescending elitism that gives all PvPers a bad name. I'm sorry that your glory days have passed you by, Lace, and your unwillingness to do anything but complain about how much better things were is really tiring. I think PvP, much like anything else in this game, is what you make of it. You can choose to have fun with what you're given, or you can sulk. But frankly, it's less fun to deal with people who don't want to do anything but talk down to people trying to enjoy what PvP is now - and not what it might have been once...

Shatter has been around since before 4.0 so I don't see how 4.0 would have changed that for you. This isn't me talking down to you or being condescending it just isn't making it relevant to why 4.0 attracted you to PvP. What people like me and ThirdChild are sulking about is the reduced skill set. Tanks actually felt worthwhile in PvP. We could go in and if left unattended could cause chaos. Now tanks are just kind of like someone tickling you or a fly that won't go away. Melee DPS had CC and had survivability. Healers were not OP and could be solo'ed by a skillful DPS.

I still have fun with some of the modes but it is less fun. I know for me personally people are using arguments that are PvP centric that apply to PvE but nobody is complaining about that. You have to also understand for ThirdChild, me and a few others. PvP is our endgame. I don't get excited about the next new raid, 24 man, dungeon, etc. I could go play another game yes but I also like my house, my friends, and the group of people I play with.

This is just an honest question. How would you feel getting stripped down to 9 buttons in PvE?

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Perhaps I wasn't clear in that statement: If you were one of the people that sat there hating PvP and saying how bad it was WITHOUT TRYING IT, then yes, you were part of the problem. If that wasn't you, then it doesn't apply to you, and that's that. However, before you go throwing the E word around, watch the video. Read this. And this. And if you want to still claim I'm elitist after that, be my guest. I'll gladly discuss that.

I would gain nothing from simply talking down to people who enjoy the new PvP. I gain EVERYTHING from sharing what I knew then and now, with intent to help see positive change, or even help others understand it better. But when I see entirely wrong information being thrown around like fact, when I see newer players STILL refusing to learn and understand this "accessible" system, and the system itself practically says it's okay to not learn and not understand, then yeah, I get bothered enough to speak up about it. Sure, I could simply say nothing and be the wall they can't get past, slinging criticisms and talking up my "glory days" as it were, but THAT would be elitist, and it's not what I wanted then, nor is it what I want now. So yes, I complain. A lot. And will continue to if it helps effect positive change.

[Kisagami]

I like Shatter & disliked PvP in ARR, so I'm part of the problem? It's that kind of condescending elitism that gives all PvPers a bad name. I'm sorry that your glory days have passed you by, Lace, and your unwillingness to do anything but complain about how much better things were is really tiring. I think PvP, much like anything else in this game, is what you make of it. You can choose to have fun with what you're given, or you can sulk. But frankly, it's less fun to deal with people who don't want to do anything but talk down to people trying to enjoy what PvP is now - and not what it might have been once...

100% agreed. I enjoy what PVP is now and I’m getting better at it. Shatter is the reason I even started queuing for PVP. I’ve even tried other modes, but they often mess with my anxiety. I’m not a competitive person, but I do TRY. And at the end of the day, I just want to relax without all the toxic PVP people I have met even in THIS game. I like the casual, relaxing environment of dueling with friends not for a win or a #1 spot, but to bond and try something new. (Addressing Thirdchild) And all your continuous anger because I keep saying what YOU experienced is rare; I envy you. If I had ran into that comradery in the greater population, I probably would have been more of a PVPer. But I haven’t found it. Ever. I just have your word to go by, and sorry, I don’t know you so I cannot trust your word for it. I need evidence beyond just forum posts. Which some have had comments that raise red flags.

And none of your videos are going to convince me. And none of your anger convinces me these will be positive changes. My positive experiences in Wolves Den have only been with friends. Not the greater population.

[AriaFairchild]

If they want 9 buttons...could never go wrong to learn from the masterpiece that is Guild Wars 1.
What kills this new PvP is not the reduction of buttons, but the almost non-existence of customization. Even freaking MOBAs and their 5 buttons have more customization than this game. There is absolutely zero depth in the current system.
Please bring 3.x back, I miss my Tarpit.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

If you like PvP as of 4.0, that's not a bad thing. However, without having experienced (or fully experienced) 3.x PvP, it often comes off as being uninformed when "new" PvPers talk up 4.0 PvP and how better it is. The "9 button" thing is often an easy target for criticism as it seems a bit backward that - in the expansion where SE made efforts to differentiate the jobs and how they play, they take PvP and force fit each job into 9 buttons. In theory, that works great for jobs like melees that have multiple combo trees, but for something like BRD/MCH, it's really a big step back. The loss of certain unique PvP-only skills, and the conversion of others into universal PvP skills that are far lesser than what they once were is yet another step backward. Sprint went from a universal skill (that finally had TP requirements removed) to an optional skill, and that just makes no sense. I want to stress that if you just got into PvP at 4.0, that's not a bad thing. But I can understand why we (players who PvPed before 4.0) just seem angry and rejecting of the way things are now. It's simply a difference of experience between both sides. That's all.

Kisagami, with no disrespect to your anxiety (that's a matter I've had to help a lot of people with in game and irl besides, so it's a serious one to me), you say that you aren't competitive but you do try. I respect that, but I'm aware that what you seek and what PvP generally tends to offer becomes a conflict of interest very quickly. Competition stirs passion; Yoshi P himself said this. Speaking AS a passionate person, where perhaps something might mess with your anxiety, it absolutely stimulates me (there's no way to make that not sound dirty, but that's not how I meant it). Duels are fun, yes, and it's a great learning tool without the stress of "live fire" training in actual matches. I still say nothing beats practical experience, but not everyone learns that way. Even so, you mention bonding and trying something new, which I'd fully support; that's what we did to create a community before. But that DOES require stepping outside your comfort zone to a degree, and it would require a player to learn more, and be willing to do so.

The issue is - and the main subject of this thread (some of our discussion would be better suited to the "Community" thread) - that necessity to learn has been lessened by this new system, and not in the right ways. If it were a matter of simple button bloat, Stormblood already addressed that. If PvP still utilized the PvE kit, then familiarity of it is already a plus. The PvP-only skills were once unique and tailored to the job rather than generic, one-size-fits-all types (Purify and Recuperate being exceptions). If it were a matter of complicated gameplay, well, this is where opinions differ. A lot of new school players like Shatter but perhaps don't like Secure or Seize. Shatter really is simply the base capturing of Secure with the randomly-spawned, fixed-location scoring points of Seize. Out of necessity, I quickly explained Secure to a random team by saying "It's Shatter without ice." And they immediately understood. No, they didn't win, but they understood what to do from that alone. Kills me inside that I had to explain the original Frontlines mode with a later derivative, but the fault of that lies with SE and what they did/didn't do with the mode until 4.0.

That aside, as I mentioned before, the necessity to learn is largely removed from PvP, along with its depth and customization like others said. You can practically play MCH with one button and gain a Battle High now. Mistakes that were once well understood as costly are not only not costly now, many players aren't even aware they're mistakes at all. And they don't HAVE to know. I made the reference before about instant kill mechanics in PvE getting nerfed, then later when the same mechanic with different paint is once again an instant kill, there are players that don't understand it (Blighted Bouquet/Pyretic/Acceleration Bomb/Extreme Caution for example). Even the Feast is getting "baked in" foolproofing, in the form of the medal caps, and the new Light Medal mechanic, which so far seems like it'd be more of a punishment to the winning team than a help to the losing one. Overall, we're seeing PvP being gradually, repeatedly dumbed down and simplified rather than efforts by SE to foster and encourage learning how it works in order to have a better experience. This is what we did before, and it wasn't difficult or time consuming to do. Losing that only estranges players that took the time to build that skill. They don't lose that skill at all, and that needs to be noted, but like the video mentions at one point, when everyone can replicate "Moment 37/the Full Parry" with less precision and timing, it cheapens what was once an awesome display of technical skill and knowledge of the game. Over time, it lowers the general technical skill and knowledge of the game, and it's simply a bad precedent.

It's good that more people are getting into it now, and like someone said, if this is a new "foundation" system, it really needs to be built upon sooner than later. Making it too simplistic and calling it "accessible" or implementing foolproofing systems to it only enforces the idea that you don't HAVE to learn it to do well, and many of us who were PvPing well before now see the harm in that. That is why we're upset.

[Wintersandman]

Shatter is the reason I even started queuing for PVP.

Did you queue for Shatter in 3.5?