Community: The Biggest Loss of 4.0 PvP

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

A random private message from a friend and former student today prompted me to share what was said (with their permission, of course), but more importantly, it really reminded me of perhaps the biggest loss of the 4.0 PvP changes, which was the dedicated community, and sense thereof that formed within and around it. To some it may seem like I'm simply beating the old "3.x was better!" horse again, but I felt it was important to share what's been left unsaid, but may perhaps be felt by many.

(The quote has been edited for grammar and punctuation.)

This is a bit sudden/random but. . . I wanted to say thank you. Thanks for getting [me] into pvp and curious about it. I'm sure I said it before, or something along similiar lines but yeah. I remember hearing people tell me about it and in my mind I was like, "What? Ehhhh this sounds weird. What the hell is this PvP? In FFXIV? Noooo must be lame or something." Something I just never expected myself to get into as much as I did really. I met soooo many people; all sorts of people teaching me different things and people I saw as rivals. Even learned how to play some of the classes in PvE from PvP. It truly was an experience I never expected and defiantly was well worth it. I honestly don't know what I'd be doing with the game if I never came across the dueling circle and got curious. Most likely wouldn't understand any of the classes in PvP or PvE honestly. That's how bad it was for me before that. Just playing blindly without really fully understanding everything. This game is the only game where, for once in my life, I wanted to become really good at it, and prove it to others. Prove it to the people that taught me. Prove to my enemies/rivals and show I finally became a challenge to them after all this time. I never felt that way towards a PvP game before; to want to become that good. I'm not sure why I felt that way. I don't think I'll ever understand, but I did, it happened, and I tried. . . I really did. Just some times it was mentally too much to me. That's why, unfortunately I end stopping mid-way through with the Feast seasons (not to the mention the complete [revamp of] 4.0 pvp with its problems still, sadly, and many many other reasons). But yea. . . either way it was all great and well worth every min of it and I thank you for that.

Let it be known that many of their sentiments echo my own, and on my side of things, it was fulfilling to find others with an interest and a willingness to learn, especially at a time where I had stopped raiding, left my longtime FC, and just aimlessly logged in, doing nothing, accomplishing nothing, and expecting nothing. It gave me a renewed enjoyment in the game, a purpose, an identity. When I set out to get back into PvP (back in 3.3), I self-styled myself as "The White Hot Machinist" - a MCH player wearing all white, whom I wanted people to immediately recognize as a skilled ally, or a tenacious threat. Most importantly, it once again gave me a sense of a community I could dedicate myself and happily belong to, which was my very same motivation for raiding back in the days of Coil.

I don't want to make this a huge personal detour down memory lane, but I wanted to say that THIS is the unspoken truth of what was lost with 4.0 PvP, if perhaps to make a mass appeal or reduce the skill gap to make it more accessible. Thing is, the player quoted above learned all I could teach them within 2 weeks. Hell, within 4 days, duels against them began to become dangerously close wins. The key is that they tried. They wanted to learn and improve, and they did. Quickly. Others saw our flashy battles (MCH vs MCH), and approached with curiosity. Some just watched, others jumped right in. I coached, I encouraged, I helped forge and unify a community on what was one of the smallest NA servers at the time. Nothing ever felt better. Even beyond that was the larger community of long time PvPers whom I had fought beside and against, learned from, and enjoyed a part of the game that only those who gave it a chance discovered was a diamond in the rough.

That sense of community is barely there now, and many simply departed, alienated and upset by the drastic changes. In their place are players that largely don't want to learn, don't NEED to learn, and consider it a random dice roll for a reward, and grab-and-go XP besides. Our once thriving Discords still remain, but sorely lack the vibrance, activity, and competitive community that once was. All this, unseen by the larger population of FFXIV that once pretended we don't exist, and perhaps would be happier if such were true.

Some may consider this to just be conjecture, and more nostalgia, glossing over the bigger issues PvP had then, and perhaps still has now. But it needed to be said, and it keeps needing to be said, if only so that SE themselves understands this and this alone:

With the changes to PvP in 4.0, you gained more players for it, yes, but you lost its community.

[Risvertasashi]

...SE really can't win.

First people complain pvp's on life support... now we're getting complaints that opening it up killed the sense of community.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

I think you missed the bigger point in my saying that. But look around the PVP section of the forums. The story tells itself.

[AriaFairchild]

...SE really can't win.

First people complain pvp's on life support... now we're getting complaints that opening it up killed the sense of community.

I mean...if you count those frontline bots as community, I guess that works too.

[PastelMiqote]

I'm not sure who was complaining back then about pvp on life support, but if you're talking about before 4.0, I was having a great time. I personally didn't like 4.0 pvp when it came out. Still don't as of right now but I accept it. I see what they were trying to do and understand, but even so still not my cup of tea. Now that doesn't mean i stopped playing. Oh no definitely not. No matter what, I'll always find my way back to playing some pvp here and there. Not as much as before when first starting back in HW's. I don't mind change but when theres no continued improvement and communication with the community (and not just simply saying "yes yes we hear you guys loud and clear") then I think there is a problem.

Yes there were improvements here and there, but its not really the main problems (the ones that have been said many times throughout these forum posts). There's clearly problems that still exist, yet not really talked about or just talked about very little, then brushed off to the side. Then saying something along the lines of "Oh by the way here's a new pvp mode! Heres a new map! etc etc" As an excuse when these other problems that still exist have been there for a while. More than 30min queue wait time back in HW's; yeah I don't mind doing that. It was a lot better then than what it is now, even with the faster queues, there's just no denying it. They keep adding new stuff which is cool but there's still all these other problems.

Some well known pvpers did get turned away from 4.0 pvp, and I don't blame them for it. Considering the fact so many bots took over, exp, garo event, glams, mounts, titles, etc., all the things we know that is the reason for all these problems existing for the most part. So I wont deny saying that it did lose some of its community, namely the people that love and care for it, while also gaining alot of new people. Unfortunately most (not all) of those people don't take it seriously. Do they have to? No, of course not, but there is A LOT of those people that don't care or take it seriously. A lot of them that don't come to just have fun, play the game mode, and just try. A lot that are just simply bots. Too many of them, and that's the problem. Its like a plague slowly taking over, making things worse.


4.X pvp is a double edged sword.

[Squintina]

As nice as that quote was, the revamp of 4.X and its issues was barely a mention, and was among "many many other reasons".

So I don't think your friend is that torn up over 4.0 pvp. From that quote it sounds like trying to become good at pvp was already getting to be too much strain mentally and even in past seasons they couldn't finish the Feast. This person would have quit pvp regardless of anything 4.0 would or wouldn't have done.

To me it just sounds like you're over-interpreting what was said because you personally want something to justify what you feel as a loss of community and a loss of interest.

When it truth communities in games go through cycles and those cycles would have happened anyway. Some people quit (for whatever reason), some people are stubborn over new changes, whatever. That isn't to say there aren't new people who DO get that feeling from the new pvp, who DO build communities from the new pvp, who DO want to get better. There have, and always will be, people who just don't take it seriously - it only is more noticeable because there are more people trying out pvp.

It's not different than how some FCs go on, other FCs die, new FCs are born. Lifecycles.

I'm enjoying pvp despite that I've never been much of a pvper (and I really suck at it lol), and I see other people who talk about pvp and go do PVP matches together. I learned how to pvp from someone on the NN dueling with me. There's even a big discord chat full of people who ask questions, talk about matches, etc... Community is what you make of it. Everything community-wise you were able to do before you can do in 4.X.

I'm not saying your loss is invalid. If you feel it, then it's valid. But that loss is not universal because that experience would change so drastically from one player to another, nor is it absolute because you can go find new people to teach, to hang out with, to build a new serious pvp community together.

[Wintersandman]

As nice as that quote was, the revamp of 4.X and its issues was barely a mention, and was among "many many other reasons".

So I don't think your friend is that torn up over 4.0 pvp. From that quote it sounds like trying to become good at pvp was already getting to be too much strain mentally and even in past seasons they couldn't finish the Feast. This person would have quit pvp regardless of anything 4.0 would or wouldn't have done.

The whole quote was about how it taught him how to play classes/jobs better even in PvE? How does the 4.0 system even allow that when classes/jobs play completely differently.

[Squintina]

The whole quote was about how it taught him how to play classes/jobs better even in PvE? How does the 4.0 system even allow that when classes/jobs play completely differently.

Actually that wasn't the whole quote.

1. thought pvp was weird
2. tried it, liked it
3. met many people
4. people taught them stuff
5. THEN a mention of how it "even" helped them with pve
6. loved the dueling circle (which last I checked is done with people)
7. For once they wanted to be good at a game
8 .Proving it (being good) to other people
9. They tried (being good) but it got too much mentally
10. Couldn't even finish feast anymore
11. a brief mention of 4.0 among "many many other reasons"

So no, the majority of that was about enjoying their own personal development and being with people, which they didn't expect to be as good as it was.

I stand by my original analysis:

As nice as that quote was, the revamp of 4.X and its issues was barely a mention, and was among "many many other reasons".

So I don't think your friend is that torn up over 4.0 pvp. From that quote it sounds like trying to become good at pvp was already getting to be too much strain mentally and even in past seasons they couldn't finish the Feast. This person would have quit pvp regardless of anything 4.0 would or wouldn't have done.

[Risvertasashi]

The whole quote was about how it taught him how to play classes/jobs better even in PvE? How does the 4.0 system even allow that when classes/jobs play completely differently.

There are other ways to push yourself towards excellence, for those that seek it. Even on the old system, pvp and pve were so different the knowledge transfer wasn't that great. Attitudes to push yourself maybe, but you're deluding yourself if you think playing pre-4.0 pvp was good way to practice for pve. And it was more of a side mention than an emphasis anyways.

The changes mean that pvp isn't gated by 100+ hours of unrelated quest content and you're not juggling 40-odd abilities. Whether or not you like that is your call, but I certainly understand why SE wasn't happy with it before...

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

As nice as that quote was, the revamp of 4.X and its issues was barely a mention, and was among "many many other reasons".

The "many many other reasons" make up the larger majority of posts in this section of the forums, hence my saying "The story tells itself." And that person still plays PvP, myself as well, albeit we do so knowing just what was lost, how many friends are no longer there, and how much lesser it is than what we had before. Say for example, you beat T7 back when it was new and you LOVED the fight, but then you had to play it as it is now (under the idea of still being at the relevant level/gear for it). Would it still be the same enjoyable fight, or are you aware of just how much less it is than what it once was? This is our issue.

You said you learned to PvP from someone dueling with you, and that community is what you make of it, yes? First, what stopped you from learning back in 3.x? I taught the person quoted and many others back in 3.x. Someone taught me. What made you not try then? Second, yes, we can still have a community. . . except we can't when we can't chat and give advice to help people in the Feast. Or when an entire other alliance is filled with bots. Or when the majority of your team just gives up and wants to wait for their precious XP that they were only there for in the first place. Or when many of the veteran players have literally just walked away from PvP, if not the game entirely. Those experiences, that knowledge, and that skill is gone, not only by their absence, but by the changes to PvP overall literally making them impossible. Before 4.0 if you asked me what the MCH burst was, I could easily tell you as well as show you. Now? More than half that burst is literally not capable of being done. You don't even have the skills/abilities to do it.

What remains of our communities, discord or otherwise, still wants to PvP, help others learn, and enjoy what new content we may get. But we can't, and we know we can't. It's like trying to listen to a band after original members leave or die; the sound is just never the same. 4.0 killed most of our original band. I won't say it can't become a new, possibly better sound, but so far, any time this new band tries to play the old songs, they're terrible, and their new songs aren't as deep or fulfilling either.