"The Consequences of Reducing the Skill Gap" (A Video Relevant to the 4.0 Changes)

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSgA_nK_w3A

This was shared to me in discord some time ago, when we were discussing the 4.0 changes. While this is about Street Fighter, many of the points here can very much apply to FFXIV's PvP, and the significant changes from 3.x to 4.0. It's a bit long at 14 minutes, but it's well worth a watch to become more familiar with why the old PvP community is so upset by the changes.

[RiyahArp]

You have to realize that the daigo parry happened in the game that was so focused on skilled play, it killed the franchise-SF3. SF3 was designed to cater to skilled players, and wound up isolating everyone else, even with the arcade mode. Having Seth who was hard as hell and had resurrection as his super canceled out a lot of goodwill that came from the gorgeous sprite artwork. At around that time, Capcom started to lose players from its main SF line into the flashier, simpler Street Fighter vs X-men series.

It wasnt just SF3, SF alpha too tried to cater a lot to experts by having the different -ism modes to customize play, but it kind of died too. I feel SF lost its way and ceded the fighting game crown to Soul Calibur then, which drew casuals with insane graphics and guest characters, as well as longer story modes.

SF3 kind of had its rebirth in the fighting game community as a tournament game, but there was a long time when it was considered Capcom's folly. I feel like its closer to Starcraft in that only pros bother with it now; the skill requirements just drove people out of the RTS genre.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Yes, there are extremes on both ends, but nothing was so exclusive about PvP before. Not one bit.

Jobs, and how they were played? Same kit you knew and were used to at 60, synced down and applied somewhat differently
Gear? By 3.5, even LAW tome gear was enough. Hell, lv 60 vendor gear was fine.

The big issue was lack of knowledge, and lack of any real effort on SE's part to even teach the basics. You got the rules of modes in patch notes, and the rest was up to the community. And while we wrote guides and made videos and the like, you can't make anyone learn anything, not even in PvE. And it took nothing to quickly explain to a teammate, "Hey, equip a fending ring if you've got one, so you have a little more HP in case of melee LB". But apparently, alleged reports of harassment (OR the attempt to try and appeal to a broader audience/attract sponsors for the e-sport dream) hold more weight than being able to communicate with and give advice to a new teammate. . .

Again, while 4.0 has brought some good ideas and changes, what was largely lost or removed was a giant step back for a system that was never perfect, but had quite a solid foundation. Dumbing it down, "simplifying" it, or making it "more accessible" should never be an answer to players simply failing to learn what was already more than available. And it really speaks in volumes when the dedicated community almost all but vanishes as a result of the changes.

[Kei_]

The problem with the newer generation of Gamers is that they want the win no matter how easy it is for them to get there.
eSports in my prime is about skill, and to say the least it didn't kill it, those that lacked the skill watched those with the skill, because sharing those moments with the skilled and their trip to success is out of this world in comparison to someone you see when anything nowadays where it's based on luck or pure unbalance.

New Gen Players = It's about the win, the easy route.
Old Gen Players = It's about the journey and rewards.

It's that simple.
New Gen players are so pitiful. No effort, looking for exploits. I can't help and just think about those 2 SCH's chain healing at a tower, If this PvP was directed by the best SKILLED players of PvP then they would have next to no success.

I talk from experience competing in Quake 3 Tournaments (FPS) which is the franchise that really kicked off eSports leading for CS, starcraft etc in later years. Perfect example of that going the same route is Quake Champions.

Quake 3 and all before = All players are the same, same movement, guns etc.
Quake Champions = Dependent on who you chose, different abilities etc.

Yes each have their good and bad points and requires some level of skill to apply these in combat, but not when you compare everyone with equal grounds which map reading, timing, accuracy and dedication to the game pays off.

Like a business, your primary concern is your investors, they keep you running by supplying resources/money.
Dedication skilled players are those investors, they move on to other games and the followers will follow.

Reduced skills was a step in the right direction to encourage more players to play, however balance is completely whack, reduce healers solo playing ability and all become more squishy requiring more skill and thought process before you engage in battles.

[I am Ranged]
1. I approach a healer and a tank.
2. I can slow tank and dps healer.
3. Continue till low Mana for healer.
4. Cycle DPS to double workload for healer and increase healers decision making and prioritizing.
5. Focus healer to finilize.
6. Kill Tank from range.

Where now it's from perspective thought train of Double Heals
[Spawn as SCH x2]
1. Run to Tower
2. Engage 5 DPS, 1 Tank, 1 Healers
3. HEAL
4. 5 hours later
6. HEAL

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

The problem with the newer generation of Gamers is that they want the win no matter how easy it is for them to get there.
eSports in my prime is about skill, and to say the least it didn't kill it, those that lacked the skill watched those with the skill, because sharing those moments with the skilled and their trip to success is out of this world in comparison to someone you see when anything nowadays where it's based on luck or pure unbalance.

Well said! This is unfortunately more true than I want it to be :/

map reading, timing, accuracy and dedication to the game pays off.

Exactly! And I can't stress enough that all of this was entirely possible in 3.x PvP, IF the effort was made to attain it.

Like a business, your primary concern is your investors, they keep you running by supplying resources/money.
Dedication skilled players are those investors, they move on to other games and the followers will follow.

THIS, SE. Though unfortunately PvP still represents a small subset of the larger community (though that doesn't make it less important or less true), but the statement very much can apply to aspects of the PvE side of the house too.

Thank you for this!

[Commander_Justitia]

They don't want "complex". They don't want many actions. They don't expect you to track buffs/debuffs. They want casual players, who can compete with dedicated players. They want spectators to be able to follow what is happening(which is actually good).

Skillgaps always existed, the old system didn't make feast solo queue less of a gamble.

They just overshot the target, we saw the revamp as a base to develop from, not as the system that replaces it for all time. So many strategies, tactics and situational counter play is gone. I hope they see how flawed it is, with the re introduction of premade teams, the hardswaps will be ridiculous.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

It's worth noting that the only way a casual player can compete with a dedicated player is to learn and improve. I mean, the same can be said for PvE too. If a player who's height of endgame play is perhaps Alliance Raids wants to start doing Savage raids, they have to learn more and improve. Bringing Savage raids down to Alliance Raid level would be a huge step backward.

Not only that, but alienating a dedicated community for a fairweather one is pretty backward as well. We were the ones who would keep queueing after the rewards were claimed, thus helping others to claim them as well. If the dedicated players disappear, then once the ones who are just in it for rewards obtain them (IF at all), they'll just leave it be and it really will become the "dead" content critics wanted to believe it was.

[Kei_]

We were the ones who would keep queuing after the rewards were claimed, thus helping others to claim them as well. If the dedicated players disappear, then once the ones who are just in it for rewards obtain them (IF at all), they'll just leave it be and it really will become the "dead" content critics wanted to believe it was.

It's sad, to go in and hear other go lucky/chance Gamers of the new era then look at these chain healers and quote them as "Skilled Healers". I'm sorry but in Frontlines mashing heals is not Skill, it's luck and chance. The amount at which they recovery only has to be as much or more than what DPS is being done, which at the moment is more than a single DPS/Few DPS can deal (Hence Unbalanced). It doesn't take a skilled player to be able to heal, we can all do it in larger groups in Dungeons/Raids, without any sort of PvP correction a Frontline

There could be a potential Solution, Limit Healers in Frontlines to 1 per Alliance for Astragalos and 1 per party in Shatter, Seize, Secure. Personally I see no issues with Ranked combat itself, sure Fixed Party will have more success over randoms due to orginization but you can have separate queue's for such point systems

i.e.
If you enter as Lone Wolf Status to Ranked
You gain 25 Points for win
10 Additional Points for Signing up lone wolf
If you enter as a Party of 2
You gain 25 Points for win
5 Additional Points for signing up with another player
You gain 25 Points for win
If you enter as a Party of 3
2 Additional Points for signing up with 2 players
You gain 25 Points for win
If you enter as a Part of 4
No additional points due to Pre-made party cohesion and benefits

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

It further disturbs me to hear the producer and director say, "If [healers] weren't at least that strong, nobody would play them."

It's so very untrue, and some of the best players I knew back in 3.x PvP were almost exclusively healers. Furthermore, a job doesn't HAVE to be strong (to the point of overpowered) for people to want to play it. Some of the jobs considered the best in PvP right now (DRK, SCH, NIN) were considered the worst back in 3.x Feast, and yet people still played them, and if they really knew how to make the most of the kit, they progressed in ranked or generally performed well with them. So I just can't buy into the idea of healers needing to be overtuned for people to want to play them.

[Kei_]

Solution is however simple for Astragalos

1: Remove the ability to sign up on Duty Finder whilst in a Party.
2: For each alliance (of 4) there can be a maximum of 1 healer, other 3 slots are not limited per class.
3: Add a limitation to Healer MP wither this be increasing the cost of heal spells or reduction in overall MP.

If they want PvP to be quick and easy for people to pick up and kill/win. Ditch party's and fix OP Healers.