SE: if it aint broke, dont fix it (War)

[Ekimmak]

I can think of ONE accessibility change I'd like made, but it's on such a generic thing that it'd be easy to copy over to the other tanks.

I'd like it if Skull Sunder could also combo from Tomahawk. It would help for those Red Mages that don't believe in using Diversion when they're using using the heavy Ver-spells on pull.

But there's bound to be a lot of math needed to go into it so that we don't end up with some sort of daft "Tomahawk meta"

[Tegernako]

snip

4.2 is bringing confirmed changes to DRK...so? Clearly they were working on these changes all the while people were saying they were doing nothing at all for the job.

*can't find link...will continue looking.

[Chrono_Rising]

4.2 is bringing confirmed changes to DRK...so? Clearly they were working on these changes all the while people were saying they were doing nothing at all for the job.

Oh, exciting, can you link a source, I'd love to read.

[shao32]

4.2 is bringing confirmed changes to DRK...so? Clearly they were working on these changes all the while people were saying they were doing nothing at all for the job.

There is no confirmed changes on DRK, most what yoship say this days several jobs Will get ajustment pointing to monk, BLM and WAR the only confirmed.

[Tegernako]

There is no confirmed changes on DRK, most what yoship say this days several jobs Will get ajustment pointing to monk, BLM and WAR the only confirmed.

What? you sure? positive they mentioned DRK changes. I'll go look after I finish this match in halo.

[shao32]

What? you sure? positive they mentioned DRK changes. I'll go look after I finish this match in halo.

Yeah im pretty sure excep yoship visit another server or something, other jobs are being asked for are scholar and machinist but yoship say both Jobs are ok

[Tegernako]

Yeah im pretty sure excep yoship visit another server or something, other jobs are being asked for are scholar and machinist but yoship say both Jobs are ok

I will continue looking for it. Pretty confident i saw something. though maybe I misread an old post or something.

[Lyth]

Warrior the only job where if you ask for anything at all you get a horde of people saying you shouldn't because of reasons.

Usually, people react to how you say something, rather than what you say.

In the case of the WAR community, it's a bit like having an acquiaintance who's a bit of a chronic braggart. It's not that you hate them, it's just that you sometimes wish that they'd stop talking about themselves quite so much.

Consider the following post, which you made immediately before this one:

It's probably because good warrior players have like a million different rotations they HAVE to learn or else they suffer a lot.

Meanwhile PLD facerolls and gets nearly the same dps with far more utility and DRK [...] which is even easier.

Everyone has a bit of a bias when it comes to jobs that they spend more time on. Not just because of ego, but because the more time you spend optimising a job, the more nuance you find, regardless of design. If you think any job is "braindead easy", then it's probably a reflection that you haven't spent enough time on it.

And just using common sense: even if you were a proven master of all three tanks and felt qualified to make this sort of claim, it isn't going to endear you to anyone if you do. Of course, to add insult to injury, the people who are proclaiming the loudest that the other two tanks are "braindead easy" are usually WAR one-tricks who have little to no experience or knowledge about either of the other tanks. But that's the nature of the echo chamber.

There's nothing wrong with being enthusiastic about your chosen job. One of the things that I loved about WAR in ARR was the sense of community and pride in the job. But I think somewhere along the line this has transgressed into arrogance and an overwhelming sense of entitlement.

In HW, it was "superior design". You can actually trace the origin of this phrase back to a WAR tank show between Xeno and Frosty back in 2015. "WAR is just better designed. Don't nerf WAR, buff DRK and PLD to its level." Never mind the fact that attempting to balance jobs through 'buffs' without 'nerfs' is not sustainable. But people continue to parrot it back to this day. Why debate with the echo chamber, when you can let your memes do the thinking for you?

But even two years of "superior design" isn't nearly as bad as six months of "braindead easy". It's the same development process. Xeno puts out the idea that DRK is "braindead easy" based on a whole two days of play testing, repeats himself a whole lot, and then the WAR echo chamber disseminates it. Because it's much easier to outsource your thinking than to actually critically evaluate ideas for yourself.

People lie about difficulty to make themselves look good. Pretending that something difficult is "easy" makes it seem like it was effortless. Making something you do look more difficult than it actually is makes you seem accomplished.

The problem is that less experienced players who are genuinely struggling with WAR due to a lack of practice instead attribute this to a falsely elevated sense of the job's difficulty.

If you got the memo, the devs specifically set out to make every job less punishing in SB. Buff management used to be a much more prevalent problem on WAR. In HW, there were plenty of players with sub 50% Maim and Eye uptime, because of overuse of BB combos. It was painful to watch. Players lost Eye mid-Berserk because they didn't refresh it. They'd not only scupper their own performance, but the raid's as well, by dropping slashing. That's practically a non-issue nowadays, due to revisions to the combo system and longer buff durations. The use of defensive buffs for resource gain in Berserk windows was removed. And it's still apparently too hard, if the devs and the community are to be believed. I sometimes wonder how much of the current WAR playerbase would be capable of playing HW WAR.

I don't mind playing a job that is relatively undertuned. There's a certain satisfaction that comes from outperforming someone who you theoretically shouldn't. "Superior design" wasn't so bad. When players got outperformed by a DRK on WAR back in HW, at least they used to have the self-awareness to recognise that there was a skill gap.

The WF ultimate team brings a DRK. The response: it must be because DRK is easier to play than WAR. There must have been some special advantage, some special buff. Completely ignoring the skill, dedication, and teamwork that went into the achievement. Not to mention the fact that "mechanical difficulty" is never a limiting factor in high level play. "Aw gee, I sure would like to use this job which brings higher dps and better cooldowns to WF prog, but the rotation is too difficult." Said no-one ever.

From a DRK point of view, I think people tend to overestimate our interest in which tank is on top between WAR and PLD. We don't really care. You can fight it out between yourselves. The dev focus is on these two jobs at the moment because they have the biggest impact on tank populations, and by extension, queue times.

As much as I'd like to see some reworks to DRK, it's not even the dev balance issues that bother me. It's the community's deliberate, systemic sniping at DRK's reputation just to make WAR look good. It gets old real fast.

[Tegernako]

You wrote all of that in response to me, just to do exactly what you criticized me of doing?

Usually, people react to how you say something, rather than what you say.

Yeah, kind of like people who pretend it's okay to attack WAR because of the changes made. I see you made no attempt to cover the people in this very thread who said it was okay to rag on warrior and its players because "we're treated so good."

In the case of the WAR community, it's a bit like having an acquiaintance who's a bit of a chronic braggart. It's not that you hate them, it's just that you sometimes wish that they'd stop talking about themselves quite so much.

So you know everyone in the WAR community? Do you say that to everyone who cares about their jobs in a game?

You're adding emotion to posts that may not even exist because you don't have the nuance to know how they are saying it, not just what they are saying. Kind of like the difference between saying "that was dumb" and laughing and saying "that was dumb" and looking at a person as if they were the dumbest person on the planet.

WAR players post about their job because they care about it, and you're calling them arrogant and self centered because of that. Yet you have the nerve to turn it around and act like other jobs are a victim because other people care more about something else. Maybe you should focus more on what people actually say and less on how they say it? (sound familiar?)

Consider the following post, which you made immediately before this one:
Everyone has a bit of a bias when it comes to jobs that they spend more time on. Not just because of ego, but because the more time you spend optimising a job, the more nuance you find, regardless of design. If you think any job is "braindead easy", then it's probably a reflection that you haven't spent enough time on it.

That's 100% an exaggeration to prove a point. You're not incorrect, it certainly can come off the wrong way and I'll probably avoid saying it like that in the future because of it. But I'm also not wrong either. PLD/DRK have much easier timing and rotations, that's a fact.

If you took that post as me saying that PLD/DRK literally need no skill at all then that is not my fault, that is yours for thinking I said something, rather then it being something I actually said. This comes back to the nuance I was talking about earlier. If you were talking to me irl, I wouldn't have said "braindead" with a look of disgust on my face. Their is no hostility, only me trying to find a way to highlight the differences.

And just using common sense: even if you were a proven master of all three tanks and felt qualified to make this sort of claim, it isn't going to endear you to anyone if you do. Of course, to add insult to injury, the people who are proclaiming the loudest that the other two tanks are "braindead easy" are usually WAR one-tricks who have little to no experience or knowledge about either of the other tanks. But that's the nature of the echo chamber.

Well, as I said. It was an exaggeration to prove a point, I don't actually think it takes no skill to be a top tier PLD/DRK. (Which doesn't even make sense as my second main...is DRK so if I did think that I would be insulting myself?!?!) So this entire line of thought is 100% moot. You came to a conclusion that was never close to what I actually thought.

There's nothing wrong with being enthusiastic about your chosen job.

"In the case of the WAR community, it's a bit like having an acquiaintance who's a bit of a chronic braggart. It's not that you hate them, it's just that you sometimes wish that they'd stop talking about themselves quite so much."

None at all. Not like people will judge you for being proud or wanting changes.

One of the things that I loved about WAR in ARR was the sense of community and pride in the job. But I think somewhere along the line this has transgressed into arrogance and an overwhelming sense of entitlement.

You call me out for making exaggerations to prove a point but then you go and make sweeping generalizations and call people braggarts and arrogant and entitled?

In HW, it was "superior design". You can actually trace the origin of this phrase back to a WAR tank show between Xeno and Frosty back in 2015. "WAR is just better designed. Don't nerf WAR, buff DRK and PLD to its level." Never mind the fact that attempting to balance jobs through 'buffs' without 'nerfs' is not sustainable. But people continue to parrot it back to this day. Why debate with the echo chamber, when you can let your memes do the thinking for you?

It's not a meme first of all. Second of all the idea that you buff upwards rather then nerf downwards has been an argument I've seen in:

Halo, League of Legends, Smite, Battlefield, Call of Duty, Dark Souls, RTS games, etc.

It's not new, it's not specific to xeno or this game. It's just people who think that all jobs or guns or roles or whatever should be as equal as possible, not for exactly the same reasons but so that they can at least all be viable.

If anything, it's a nice way of thinking, it's a desire for their to be more variety, and for more people to be useful no matter what they bring to the table.

But even two years of "superior design" isn't nearly as bad as six months of "braindead easy". It's the same development process. Xeno puts out the idea that DRK is "braindead easy" based on a whole two days of play testing, repeats himself a whole lot, and then the WAR echo chamber disseminates it. Because it's much easier to outsource your thinking than to actually critically evaluate ideas for yourself.

That's right! All of us listen ONLY to Xeno. Not like I had topics about this months before SB came out about my not liking the changes to WAR and before he uttered a word on the topic. Everyone who thinks warrior needed/needs changes is just following an echo chamber of arrogance, who doesn't think critically, and needs other people to think for themself.

The audacity of you to try and claim the higher ground while doing nothing but making assumptions and insulting people while disregarding the very people in this thread attacking war players "just because we deserve it" is honestly despicable.

People lie about difficulty to make themselves look good. Pretending that something difficult is "easy" makes it seem like it was effortless. Making something you do look more difficult than it actually is makes you seem accomplished.

Because saying someone has an easier rotation/timing in a fight is definitely the same as saying a fight is made effortless because of it. You could have 8 warriors that have access to every skill in the game (with 6k dps) doing the un-endying coil and still never beat it, because personal skill matters just as much if not more then job skill. Where has ANYONE ever said that DRK having an easier rotation is what made it coil viable and not WAR on first clear?

The problem is that less experienced players who are genuinely struggling with WAR due to a lack of practice instead attribute this to a falsely elevated sense of the job's difficulty.

Give one example.

The WF ultimate team brings a DRK. The response: it must be because DRK is easier to play than WAR. There must have been some special advantage, some special buff. Completely ignoring the skill, dedication, and teamwork that went into the achievement. Not to mention the fact that "mechanical difficulty" is never a limiting factor in high level play. "Aw gee, I sure would like to use this job which brings higher dps and better cooldowns to WF prog, but the rotation is too difficult." Said no-one ever.

Find me three people who said it was because DRK was easier to play. When I heard of DRK clearing, I thought it must have been because of the very specific things it brought to the table that it does have. The thought of the easier rotation being the reason, NEVER crossed my mind. You literally just made that up because you're biased (all people are biased? Remember?) and need some kind of point to attack people.

From a DRK point of view, I think people tend to overestimate our interest in which tank is on top between WAR and PLD. We don't really care. You can fight it out between yourselves. The dev focus is on these two jobs at the moment because they have the biggest impact on tank populations, and by extension, queue times.

You care enough to try and bring down WAR players, and insult them a whole lot.

As much as I'd like to see some reworks to DRK, it's not even the dev balance issues that bother me. It's the community's deliberate, systemic sniping at DRK's reputation just to make WAR look good. It gets old real fast.

As much as I'd like to see some reworks to DRK, it's not even the dev balance issues that bothers me. It's the community's deliberate, systemic sniping at WAR just to make yourself feel better. It gets old real fast.

It's okay to generalize war players, call them arrogant, blind, rude, say they don't care for other jobs, to make up arguments that were never said. But it's not okay for WAR players to care about their job over others or ask for continual changes.

You're a hypocrite. Don't know where you get off pretending to be some moral authority.

Oh, exciting, can you link a source, I'd love to read.

I think I was wrong. I think I mis-remembered a reddit post for changes to black mage and for some reason remebered it as DRK.

[Xtrasweettea]

Usually, people react to how you say something, rather than what you say.

In the case of the WAR community, it's a bit like having an acquaintance who's a bit of a chronic braggart. It's not that you hate them, it's just that you sometimes wish that they'd stop talking about themselves quite so much. […]

I know right, I mean just look at these relevant (relevant being last response is in 2018) WAR threads in the tank forums.

http://

Those annoying chronic braggarts.