Just realized something: FFXIV is a terrible DPS player's DREAM come true...

[Sebazy]

This isn't Heavensward, where healer DPS could easily end up contributing about 20% of the overall party's DPS during a whole dungeon run (or in clearer terms, 800-1k+ DPS), and good DPS typically pulled around 1.8-2.5k+. In Stormblood, the only healers I've seen that are able to pull that off anymore (about 2k-2.5k+ DPS) are healers that have the O4S weapon and/or know how to maximize everything.

20% he says =(

It kind of makes me a little sad there isn't some form of fun dungeon ranking TBH as it'd be interesting to see just how hard people managed to push in the current dungeons. I personally hit a wall at 3.8k DPS across the dungeon regardless of if the group was fast or slow.

[Balipu]

I'm not a savage raider cause I'm not good enough to savage raid. But in the areas where I play as far as I'm concerned the healer DPS debate died when Yoshie-P said that healers shouldn't be expected to dps.
I mean I still do it because I like how I'm in absolute control of the battlefield with heals, debuffs, buffs and damage flying in all direction. But that is my choice. When I dps, I expect me and the other DPS to do most of the damaging. If we continue to fail I check the gear of my partner (I tend to try avoiding dungeons undergeared). If the tank dies a lot I check the tank gear first the healer gear second.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

So even though the thread is specifically targeting DPS players, I have to make my posts more verbose than they already are to avoid insinuating that similar/same requirements aren't required of healers and tanks? Apparently even in a thread talking about instances, I need to go above and beyond for the sake of argument. Ok, fine. I will do so going forward.

Save the condescension, especially when it becomes evident you didn't bother to actually read my response.

Really? Then why are healers and tanks being called out in savage raids and EX trials for low deeps? That pretty much takes the wind right out of your argument. Do you not see how this contributes to the problem the OP speaks of? Did you not see the other poster who listed a healer's requirements for savage raiding, stating that it was too much? Field interactions weren't even on her list, and yet we are expected to do this too. All because nothing is more important than your precious deeps, even if that means making tanks and healers work harder. It's comments like this that help me understand where the OP is coming from. I won't make any comparisons of which role has it more difficult, but it is quite clear that DPS have the fewest expectations in pretty much all content.

Like here! Healers and tanks are called out for low DPS relative to whats expected. Are you being deliberately obtuse or do you actually believe people would call out a 1,500 DPS healer because they stopped to do a mechanic? Complaints arise when healers stand still and hover at scarcely 500. And I never disagreed with the OP. Your response attributed mechanics to DPS insinuating they had other responsibilities when everything you said applies to everyone, thus it's not an exclusive DPS focus. As for interactive mechanics. It boils down to simple pragmatism. When the is to deplete the boss' HP within a certain time frame, do you, have the 4,500+ DPS disengage or the 1,800 healer, assuming there is no outgoing damage they need to account for? But yes, "muh deeps"

And what does that said context provide? Is it entirely beneficial? Can it be abused? You can't answer yes to first question, if the answer to the second is also yes.

This is a strawman. By those parameters, should we remove Vote Abandon/Kick? It cannot be entirely beneficial since it can and has been abused.

The 24-man failed, simple as that. You go in as a group. You fail/succeed as a group. All I see is you want to find the weakest link, and your intention of doing so can be good or bad. You've already mentioned how to do so without a damage meter: It's the loudest player in the group, pointing fingers at everyone except himself. If he/she was in one of my groups, they would be the first I would recommend gets booted. No fflogs given. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that an in-game parser/damage meter wouldn't assist to help a player get better. However, what I am saying is that they are not needed to identify a bad player. Unless, your sole definition of a bad player is the one who has the lowest deeps, and I really hope that is not the case.

Not necessarily. That was merely an example of bad players shifting the blame vocally. Others remain silent yet are no less contributing to a slower or ultimately failed run. How do you identify them? What if you aren't meeting DPS checks, especially in EX Primals or Savage? A parse provides context because someone, yes, it becomes important to determine the weakest link and address it. Why should someone pulling significantly less weight not be held accountable? You needn't ostracise or harass them, but pointing out their low DPS is no different than asking a tank why they aren't using CDs. This thread exists to point out how only one is acceptable while another may get you banned.

[VanilleFang]

healer deeps

I've been wanting to ask when you posted this elsewhere: do you Aero II everything individual on large pulls? I'm just curious because that DPS is fairly impressive. Though I suppose someone had to make up for the low DPS elsewhere.

[LastFireAce]

This basically Happened in all MMO, actually DPS get call out allot, "Stop floor tanking DRG" (outside of the joke)
"MNK? MCH? Do more DPS"
"SMN your dam scrub"
"SAM you can't do shit"
"Either you DPS or we kick you"

[RichardButte]

RichardButte casts /Verraise

Sorry, I had stepped away from the forums and still feel this is an extremely valid and worrisome issue.

To be perfectly honest, the reason Tank and Healer are under heavier scrutiny, is because they are essential roles. You can limp by with less DPS or even just the Tank and Healer for a bit, but if you lose either your Tank or Healer (and can't get them back up) then you just lost the fight.

...Except that DPS checks are very much a thing in this game, particularly in any static raiding situation.

I don't feel like I should have to point out why levels 1-70 being 0 pressure for DPS before DPS checks suddenly becoming a thing is terrible game design.

What damage meters provide is context. Whenever a 24 man goes awry, I'll often see DPS whining about damage or healing yet lo' and behold, they are among the lowest in DPS. Furthermore, I firmly believe many people don't realize they are underperforming because this game does a piss poor job relaying that sort of information. These are the people who would benefit most since they're far more inclined to improve, especially since the positive reinforcement of seeing their damage shoot from say 3,500 to 4,500 will only encourage them.

And this is why the doubly-backwards logic behind this whole anti-DPS meter sentiment is so inane...

For starters, two of the three roles in this game will be scrutinized for their performance already, so the third not being treated the same way is just plain unfair to healers and tanks.

Second, SOMEONE is going to get blamed no matter what. It's not like the omission of DPS meters makes players who are salty about wiping somehow LESS salty. They just blame the players playing classes that are frequently maligned for being low on the DPS charts instead of blaming the players who are ACTUALLY to blame.

Third, FFXIV is the only game I know of with raid encounters that HAVE DPS checks but no actual means of determining if you, as a DPS player, are meeting that DPS check at that very moment.

If nothing else, give us personal DPS meters so we can see right then and there how much damage we're doing. I know for a FACT that if players had the ability to look at their DPS and say, "Oh, it goes up a lot when I weave this ability into my rotation..." we'd have better DPS all around.

[Sebazy]

I've been wanting to ask when you posted this elsewhere: do you Aero II everything individual on large pulls? I'm just curious because that DPS is fairly impressive. Though I suppose someone had to make up for the low DPS elsewhere.

I try to get as many Aero IIs up as I can whilst the train is still in motion, you'll see me hoping along with every Aero in the replay's I've linked here in the past to ensure I don't get spun round for example. From there, if the group is murdering stuff like the fast link, no, once we're stopped, it's almost purely Aero III and Holies until there's a straggler worth throwing rocks at (which arguably cost me DPS but it's for the good of the group so eh).

For more average to slower groups I put more of an emphasis on Aero II, Skalla's forced small pulls is another case where it's rarely effective to blow everything on a single pull like it more typically is in Temple. Skalla is kind of frustrating as it's actually pretty hard to DPS as hard as I would like, beyond the early pull with the flying bug things, the rest of the dungeon is either comparatively small pulls or forces a bunch of movement (h8h8h8 that doll at the end).

Naturally, getting good value out of Thin Air and PoM are paramount. If I'm not almost entirely gassed going into a Temple or Ala Mhigo boss then I messed up somewhere.

I have also been known to do a cheeky Aero II on a dieing mob for additional scumbag padding if I'm not going to be able to get another Stone IV on it in time

[VanilleFang]

Wow your dpsing sounds oddly similar to mine. Even the Aero II on dying mobs. I thought I was the only one who did that.

[SaitoHikari]

20% he says =(

It kind of makes me a little sad there isn't some form of fun dungeon ranking TBH as it'd be interesting to see just how hard people managed to push in the current dungeons. I personally hit a wall at 3.8k DPS across the dungeon regardless of if the group was fast or slow.

Thank you for reminding me why I switched mains from WHM to BRD. At least the poor healers that I run into won't suffer if I walk in and murderbard instead. D:

[basketofseals]

I'm not a savage raider cause I'm not good enough to savage raid. But in the areas where I play as far as I'm concerned the healer DPS debate died when Yoshie-P said that healers shouldn't be expected to dps.

This was said so long ago though, can we even really say it's true anymore? If healers aren't expected to dps, than I'm wondering what level of performance SE is is expecting out of the dps and tanks. If each healer is doing 1200 dps each, which is on the lower end of "expected" healer damage, then the other roles would have to pump out another 400 dps EACH to make up for that. That's a lot in my opinion.