Why Does It Feel Like Poor Play Is Acceptable (I'm Venting.)

[Jijifli]

I am by no means excusing the behavior of people to resort to name calling and such, but are you really being fair here? Player A is a jerk and is mean to you, so you take it out on player B?

The reason this thread was made was because of people who actively ignore or harass those who put advice in a kind and helpful way. Kindly mentioning shield oath gets me harassed. Kindly mentioning fire gets me harassed. I made the thread to get the constantly building steam off before I took it out on someone who didn't deserve it.

Please look at my original post again, or do I gotta hold your hand to it as well?

[winsock]

I gotta hold your hand to it as well?

I'm not being aggressive toward you, even sided with you about the person who was mean to you. I'm not telling you how to act, just pointing out that you're judging people based on actions they've never taken. Then you start talking down to me, show disrespect, and engage in the very behavior you seem to be so opposed to.

[Hruodig]

I'm not being aggressive toward you, even sided with you about the person who was mean to you. I'm not telling you how to act, just pointing out that you're judging people based on actions they've never taken. Then you start talking down to me, show disrespect, and engage in the very behavior you seem to be so opposed to.

Maybe if you didn't make disingenuous arguments based purely on hypotheticals then people wouldn't be getting frustrated with you. No one should have to teach someone who's in level 70 content how to do the bare bones basics of their job, period. The reason they're bad doesn't matter, because the end result is the same: you're wasting 3 other random people's time. Practice on a dummy. Look up a guide. Watch a video. Do SOMETHING to show that you put in a modicum of effort before you jumped straight into content you have no business being in.

[Jijifli]

Maybe if you didn't make disingenuous arguments based purely on hypotheticals then people wouldn't be getting frustrated with you.

^^^^^^^^^^^

[winsock]

No one should have to teach someone who's in level 70 content how to do the bare bones basics of their job, period.

No one is requiring you to do so. However, if you'd like to discuss, I would be interested to hear why you feel that way.

The reason they're bad doesn't matter, because the end result is the same: you're wasting 3 other random people's time.

And technically, it's inconsiderate for them to queue and not know how to play. I'd agree with that. Is it fair to say that its a matter of principle?

Now that's all fine and dandy in principle, but realistically, what do you do about it? you queue solo for expert roulette, hit ala mhigo, and get a bad tank. How do you handle this situation without violating the principles you stand on?

[akaneakki]

No one is requiring you to do so. However, if you'd like to discuss, I would be interested to hear why you feel that way.
?

No one is required to help others, however when you run content with others you are required to do basic.

[Jijifli]

No one is requiring you to do so. However, if you'd like to discuss, I would be interested to hear why you feel that way.

Actually, if I wanna be technical here, anyone that's signed up for mentor's gotta. Also, if the person's inability to press more than butcher block prevents progress, I either explain to them how to play, or kick without a word, and we all know how much people like to assume silent kicks are about third party stuff...

Now that's all fine and dandy in principle, but realistically, what do you do about it? you queue solo for expert roulette, hit ala mhigo, and get a bad tank. How do you handle this situation without violating the principles you stand on?

I explain it, very simply, I pretend I'm talking to a 5 year old. If they refuse, I throw a kick. If they harass me for it, I throw a report. my issue is that people tend to go silent and ignore it, or harass me for it, rather than take the advice. These players should have not been capable of reaching later parts of the game, but they do, because someone can carry them through it. I don't need great. I don't even need good. I just want people that can play their role at a basic understanding by the time they reach content that is meant to demand it. Sastasha doesn't demand it. Sastasha's built with the expectation 4 people don't know how to play. Dungeons by later on should be expecting that the player has learned since Sastasha though.

[winsock]

..snip...

I want to address some of the things that you said that I do agree with. Things like holding mentors to higher standards and:
"I explain it, very simply, I pretend I'm talking to a 5 year old. If they refuse, I throw a kick. If they harass me for it, I throw a report."

Personally, I agree with this approach. For example, if the you or the party were to request the tank use tank stance and flash, but the tank refuses. In this scenario, they are unwilling to work as a team, and you can hold them accountable for their unwillingness with a kick. You have actual evidence as to what they've done in this scenario. As far as I'm concerned, this is solid.

Up to this point at the very least, I think we are more or less on the same page. Does your opinion change by expert roulette? My doesn't and it is simply because, I dont see much difference in what the content demands at a minimum, and i cannot prove they know better.

[MoroMurasaki]

Up to this point at the very least, I think we are more or less on the same page. Does your opinion change by expert roulette? My doesn't and it is simply because, I dont see much difference what the content demands at a minimum, and i cannot prove they should know better.

I don't think most of the people you're debating vary from this by much either, even in expert roulette.

I think you start to see standards actually enforced when you get into content with enrage timers like EX and Savage - at that point you can't get by just throwing out some basic rotation advice because you actually need the majority of the group paying attention and doing alright.

It's crazy how huge this thread has become when there is hardly a disagreement involved.

[Jijifli]

Personally, I agree with this approach. For example, if the you or the party were to request the tank use tank stance and flash, but the tank refuses. In this scenario, they are unwilling to work as a team, and you can hold them accountable for their unwillingness with a kick. You have actual evidence as to what they've done in this scenario. As far as I'm concerned, this is solid.

If it's the reason he's losing threat and refuses to fix it, then yes, we're on the same page.