Either SMN and RDM should lose their Raise or BLM should get a Raise.

[Kabooa]

Also, Manashift is great on a BLM for one reason: infinite mana. Just shift to Umbral Ice and regen your mana, this isn't a hard concept.

This is irrelevant as Summoner is currently running a surplus on MP. So they are effectively just as good on Mana Shift with effortless weaving because half of their stuff is instant.

Also, very few groups don't run a Bard or Machinist, who currently invalidate (or enable, depending on your view) Mana shift.

[LeeraSorlan]

@Amoryenar


The problem is you are talking about lore in a game that breaks lore already in so many ways with the most terrible excuse as to why it "fits" into the lore... hildibrand? Ozma, gilgamesh? every FF boss fanservice appearance? Ivalice has been stated by the devs multiple times to not exist in this games lore, and yet we have rabanastre. the void is there main excuse, gilgamesh is here because the void, omega summons creatures through the void, exdeath came through the void, world of darkness came through the void...i mean if you want to get technical, they can say " a sub creation of the blackmage has came through the void and bestowed his knowledge and skills to the thaumaturge and blackmages of eorzea" Being from another dimension, black mages of that universe could have a different way of study and a different lore based around what kind of job they are. but ykno it fits the lore cos THE VOID.

Ths is why i say the lore is irrelevant. not because its not good lore, or because i dont care about the lore...but because the lore is such a vague thing in this specific game, that they need only make one small excuse of an adjustment and suddenly it fits in the lore.

[Remedi]

They never said that ivalice never existed in FFXIV, they said it's not from The ivalice Alliance.

The game is a giant fanservice everything is a reference to the old games and they are beign retrofitted into the lore of this game.
Do not mix the general FF franchise lore with the lore of FFXIV however that's a different thing

Downplaying lore for games is a terrible treshold at that point you might aswell remove all jobs and make all characters be some shounen anime OP guy that can literally do everything because reasons.

[Savagelf]

i could see black mage get spell simalar to raise use it black mage powers

[Shiroe]

ill just repeat

rdm have dualcast, ... smn have so many instant moves / are very mobile, smn can give up a swiftcast with no problem

but blm need swiftcast badly for mobility, they cant really afford to give it up (in real endraids) swiftcast + rez

(and blm might have "infinite" mp, but in every rotation mp is calculated down to the last drop, tltr: blm have to rez "in ice astral" too, depending on the rota timing, might as well let a healer hard cast the rez till the blm is back in ice astral...; and lore-wise makes no sense to give blm rez,.. there are other means to make blm desirable again, rez is not one if them)

[Ceallach]

words

But is that useful uptime or spamming Scathe while moving? Also, Frost wouldn't give Umbral Hearts, so about half your point is invalid, and we can invalidate the other half by stating one obvious fact: clipping your damage over time effects that early is bad. Even if my idea is crap, you can at least admit that it's 245218093457230984765092314760923457809234679023476902346092347860932485092347609237406923456097342590623462385976298572894357928147598246598723459872859672348572840395729483569823146927836509827598023759823467920843569872465982475982369853247689236495723095872349856264790582473958634982749582763489053274986624398572498573498672398567298467y349856729843569823467890234509284609832568u3250967324095723985462937862938767529847659842365892475892490% better than giving black mage a Raise variant.

Giving BLM a raise would break the Lore so badly. I know a lot of you guys don't give two craps about the lore but you forget this is an rpg. If an rpg sets up lore that states, quite obviously I might add, that Thaumaturgy is about death and destroying things then gives a class that is, according to lore, ILLEGAL in the realm of magic, it would become the most awful rpg. There's no way to sugar coat it.

THANK YOU!!!

To all the people complaining about the lack of mobility that BLM has: just stop playing BLM. Play SMN or RDM, BLM isn't for you.

That's basically what I do, yes.

Ths is why i say the lore is irrelevant. not because its not good lore, or because i dont care about the lore...but because the lore is such a vague thing in this specific game, that they need only make one small excuse of an adjustment and suddenly it fits in the lore.

By your logic, chocobos shouldn't exist. Please do actual research before you dismiss the entirety of a world.

[EllieShadeflare]

@Amoryenar


The problem is you are talking about lore in a game that breaks lore already in so many ways with the most terrible excuse as to why it "fits" into the lore...

This is so offensive that it's honestly kinda sad. So, let me point out where you're wrong.

hildibrand?

He's a comedic character who utilizes comedic logic in a world that is willing to support the comedic logic even if it isn't primarily comedic.

Ozma,

They literally stated that this incarnation of Ozma was a superweapon built by Mhach, much in the same way that Ultima and Proto Ultima were superweapons built by Allag.

gilgamesh

Gilgamesh exists in the meta FF lore. In fact, he's the only FF character to always be the same character. Note that any time I mention a boss/character in this game, it'll be referred to as this incarnation but for Greg? He's always the same character, no matter how much his appearance changes.

every FF boss fanservice appearance?

The same way they do in other games: They're not the same incarnation as the previous version. Even if they look the same, they're not (with few exceptions, like potentially Omega).

Ivalice has been stated by the devs multiple times to not exist in this games lore, and yet we have rabanastre.

Did they? I don't think they actually have, especially considering the map for Ivalice heavily coincide with FFXIV's map. That, or it may have been a deflection.

the void is there main excuse,

This is when anyone in their right mind would stop taking you seriously, because it's really not. The only real things that are excused by the Void are Voidsent, Voidsent related activities and Gilgamesh.

gilgamesh is here because the void,

Only one here that is actually true.

omega summons creatures through the void,

This is a machine that literally creates life. It does not summon creatures.

exdeath came through the void,

Blatantly false if you actually played Omega, for he is actually based on a fairy tale that just so happens to resemble the FFV backstory for him and Omega just made him manifest.

world of darkness came through the void...

The World of Darkness IS the Void, you dingus. Or at least part of it.

i mean if you want to get technical, they can say " a sub creation of the blackmage has came through the void and bestowed his knowledge and skills to the thaumaturge and blackmages of eorzea" Being from another dimension, black mages of that universe could have a different way of study and a different lore based around what kind of job they are. but ykno it fits the lore cos THE VOID.

Except our Black Mages (at least, the ones taught by Lalai aka US) would never accept teachings from void related shenanigans. See: Every time we saw Black Mages consort with void magic (Memeupo, our old 1.x teacher and the Defiant) or see the results of consorting with Void Magic (Ququruka's abomination at the end of the 2.x BLM storyline, the entirety of Mhach's demise, Nym, Amdapor).

As far as we've seen through the lore and the story, void magic is such bad news that we'd basically have to sink to such a low point that Eorzea already hates us before we begin thinking about using it.

Ths is why i say the lore is irrelevant. not because its not good lore, or because i dont care about the lore...but because the lore is such a vague thing in this specific game, that they need only make one small excuse of an adjustment and suddenly it fits in the lore.

Unfortunately, it's not, but anyone can make anything look "vague" by refusing to explain anything.

I've always wondered why BLMs could never reach into the void.

I know I'm late, but as I've briefly explained in this posts and others, while Black Magic has led to Void Magic, we, the protagonists don't use it because the lore and the story has shown that Void Magic is very, very bad news.

It's led to the destruction of at least FOUR civilizations (Allag (because Xande pledged himself and the Allagan Empire to the Cloud of Darkness), Amdapor (because Mhach planted Diabolos and also the eventual flood), Nym (gotta love voidsent that create plagues), and ESPECIALLY Mhach (because the flood and also void magic and voidsent are so fickle, they're pretty much quick to turn on its users unless they're full blown Ascian).

Every time we see Void Magic and Voidsent involved in the lore, it has always always ALWAYS been used for ill will and even if it hasn't, it still leads to very bad news. See: Edda, EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE PALACE OF THE DEAD, the Defiant, Memeupo (our old 1.x Thaumaturge mentor), the abomination created by Ququruka out of his old followers that we see in the Level 50 Black Mage quest, the Defiant being seen as a very bad group, everything to do with a specific curse afflicted on a Red Mage quest NPC in our team and a similar power used by the 50-60 villain, anything to do with the Ascians, Crystal Tower, Shadows of Mhach... I... really don't have to go on, do I?

In addition, it's pretty clear that whatever form of Black Magic we're using, Lalai is deliberately steering us away from Void Magic at all costs... which isn't exactly unsupported by the original creator of the art when she appears later on when she calls us a true successor to her art. Hell, our avoiding Void Magic is in part what's leading to the whispers that Black Magic may be inching its way to being lore acceptable to be in the open... so long as we don't start using the void.

[Kabooa]

But is that useful uptime or spamming Scathe while moving?.[/URL]

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/WgcKP...-done&source=3

Do your homework.

That's 5 scathes over an 18 minute fight.

Whether or not you use B4 is dependent on several factors, as in most cases it comes up neutral compared to just going without. Frost removes this from consideration, providing a more flexible source of extra potency without the cast time, meaning the MP tick is no longer one of the several factors, and it can be utilized almost immediately after Foul with little chance of delaying your entry into AF.

AKA Might as well remove B4.

[Llugen]

Look at how many more people came into the thread with "no rez muh swiftcast/uptime killz the loar" while I was gone~! To those of you just joining, welcome! Please read the 40-some pages of me explaining why your surface argument(s) are flawed. Much appreciated! <3



I'm sort of growing to like the idea of BLM activating a "raise proc" on a healer. On the surface it might not make much sense from a lore standpoint but since BLM is the infinite MP machine in this game it follows that it could extend this aetherial balance somehow to another player. The issue with this is that this STILL needs a middleman to enact, and if both healers are dead then it's still moot. Unless it functioned both as a pre-raise AND a "raise proc". I don't know, I still think the off-GCD recast direct target would be a stronger choice.




@Gait: Also I forgot to mention a while back, it WOULD follow that PLD should get a raise, and honestly I wouldn't be opposed to paladin having one, but the tank role at large would STILL be balanced if it did, because it's the only one that would have it, AND there will always be two tanks in a standard comp. There is only ONE caster in a standard comp, so this same argument cannot be used for the caster role.




Also, about Mana Shift, I feel like one of BLM's utilities (going off the infinite MP machine statement I made earlier) should be a "tether" that regens a target's MP over 6-9 seconds as long as they stay in range at no actual MP cost to the BLM. This would at least help with this issue, although the role pool skill is still lacking.

The cold hard truth is if the group is taking heat and the healers are in trouble, I'm going to use Mana Shift, even if I'm in Astral Fire, which really really sucks for me, but it's better than the whole group wiping. This is called "teamwork", I believe

Gentle satire aside, don't ever forget that Personal DPS <<<< Group DPS/Wiping. (This is one of the biggest things that I think most of the people opposed to Raise on BLM might not fully understand, to be blunt. This game is about group play, not solo play. See also my anecdote about single-player game BLM expectations vs MMORPG BLM (read: caster role) expectations.)

[Kabooa]

I'm sort of growing to like the idea of activating a "raise proc" on a healer. On the surface it might not make much sense from a lore standpoint but since BLM is the infinite MP machine in this game it follows that it could extend this aetherial balance somehow to another player. The issue with this is that this STILL needs a middleman to enact, and if both healers are dead then it's still moot..

If Mana Shift wasn't so hot garbage, this honestly wouldn't be much of an issue. Being able to supplement the MP for the raise and then some would easily make up for not having it. summoner and Red mages take the entire cost of time / MP onto themselves, so if Black Mage provided a greater net against Cost it'd equal out in every scenario but the double healer death.

It's plain just absurd how weak Mana Shift is compared to MP song.