Either SMN and RDM should lose their Raise or BLM should get a Raise.

[Karshan]

I have to step in not to defend anyone just to react on things I disagree with : ok for RDM where chain rez are a strain (but absolutely no strain if a one time thing), but for SMN where is the strain on rezzing exactly ? I'm main SMN, I rez frequently (and yes, it's done in a snap and no biggy) and what strain is there ? 3600 MP every minute or so ? Considering of course you swiftcast it you basically NEVER run out of MPs nowadays since the 4.1 patch, rez strain on SMN is pretty much non existent. If the SMNs you encounter don't rez you they are cheap ones (or not paying attention, so either way, not assets to the team).

So there is no "solid, actual downside" to look up for to give BLM a raise. Like many said, people won't rez too much because the MP cost impacts DPS. Well BLM won't rez outside of Umbral because of how much it impacts their DPS otherwise. So there you have it, a form of moderation.

I don't agree with everything Llugen exposes on BLM, and I'm no expert in the matter either, no orange logs and only did Creator and Omega so maybe my thoughts on that don't matter. But I do have some raid experience and really have trouble with a selfish class in a "group effort" kind of game, there is something wrong in the core of it, but apparently many don't see a problem with "no synergy - doing my thing"

[GaitSpiff]

So there is no "solid, actual downside" to look up for to give BLM a raise. Like many said, people won't rez too much because the MP cost impacts DPS. Well BLM won't rez outside of Umbral because of how much it impacts their DPS otherwise. So there you have it, a form of moderation.

I don't agree with everything Llugen exposes on BLM, and I'm no expert in the matter either, no orange logs and only did Creator and Omega so maybe my thoughts on that don't matter. But I do have some raid experience and really have trouble with a selfish class in a "group effort" kind of game, there is something wrong in the core of it, but apparently many don't see a problem with "no synergy - doing my thing"

I notice the longer a fight drags out, the more the cost is for most.SMN and SCH have it slightly easier than their counterparts because they have the extra mana return resource in Aetherflow that RDM, WHM, and AST don't have. And while each healer does have another way of limiting MP bleed/regenerating MP, the simple fact is I would rather see something actually imaginative out of Llugen to warrant his open hiding behind his argument of "lack of imagination/inability to see my side of the argument". That, and I just feel that raises needing to be handed out like candy, like he suggests, is against the point of what's happening as a whole.

[Llugen]

I'm not "hiding" behind any argument, if anything it is y'all who are "hiding" behind your staunch "it's against the lore, muh splosions". Also note how prism responds to my posts with nothing of value added to the conversation, only a paraphrase of what I just said sarcastically changed to suit his bias. This is harassment, and completely counter-productive; I've replied to his thread in a civil manner without being a troll, he's literally just out to get me. See how that works?



If you're running out of MP on RDM short of dying immediately after lucid, then you're probably doing it wrong.

I'm merely pointing out that the role is imbalanced, whether you agree or disagree is irrelevant. We can disagree about the solution to the problem, but there is no denying the fact. I'm aiming to find a fix for it for all players, and by the sound of it, you lot are looking to.... keep it broken because it doesn't affect you. And because you think the lore untouchable, apparently. (Hence, the imagination tiff)


It's basically that simple. I feel like players should be able to work together in multiplayer games (read: support tools), and you feel like "doing your own thing" is more important, I guess. This mentality would never ever fly in the groups I play in.

Besides, you even said directly "if I got a raise I wouldn't use it." Ok, fine! Don't use it! Let me have it to use it where I need, and you can keep being stubborn and not use it all you like. Ellie directly admitted to finding little use for Apoc in previous patches and by extension likely eye and virus, so pretend it's like one of those. Problem solved.



Side note: note how I'm able to get along with Remedi perfectly fine in this thread and the other threads even though we disagree. This is probably because I understand what they are saying and they understand what I am saying, and both have valid opinions (theirs being mostly that raise is too freely given at the moment and should be nerfed across the board). You bunch can't even seem to understand what I'm even saying, so.... yep. I'm totally "hiding".

[GaitSpiff]

Where did I say, or others say, that BLMs can't work together with other jobs? Honestly, I just see nothing about your option that works logically with the class, and would rather you put some imagination into it. Heck, you yourself claim to be a main but then admit your group makes you run as another class for progression, so that could either be seen as "my group values this job far more than my enjoyment on this job" which is inherently the group's fault OR "my group wants me to switch to this job because they believe I'll perform better with it than my current main" which implies a deficiency in your own abilities as a BLM compared to your abilities on RDM.

I'm merely pointing out that the role is imbalanced, whether you agree or disagree is irrelevant. We can disagree about the solution to the problem, but there is no denying the fact. I'm aiming to find a fix for it for all players, and by the sound of it, you lot are looking to.... keep it broken because it doesn't affect you. And because you think the lore untouchable, apparently. (Hence, the imagination tiff)

I agree, right now the role is imbalanced, I disagree that it should have a raise and further have asked you to at least think of a reasonable raise that would be equally usable by Black Mage that fits with the lore, rather than retouching the lore unnecessarily is all. I gave three fairly valid examples of raise alternatives that could work, in my eyes, just as well for BLM that have grounding in the existing kit.

Besides, you even said directly "if I got a raise I wouldn't use it." Ok, fine! Don't use it! Let me have it to use it where I need, and you can keep being stubborn and not use it all you like. Ellie directly admitted to finding little use for Apoc in previous patches and by extension likely eye and virus, so pretend it's like one of those. Problem solved.

Apocatastasis did have some fairly limited uses, and did, to some extent, require a macro to be created to target the main tank if not using shortcuts(and macros are fairly fallible). As you've read previously, I am personally in the less raises camp myself, but at the same time, I'd like to see something that, despite its more relatively limited uses in other content, wouldn't make Black Mage a Raise Horse in the eyes of the community while giving it the same raising ability as the other two casters if one MUST be added. If you would rather speak of a reasonable option to that, I'd happily further this discussion rather than talk circularly around each other constantly like this.

[Llugen]

Works logically with the ROLE, thank you very much. That is the purpose of this thread.

And by all means, if you have another suggestion for how to implement Raise on BLM or something similar, I'm all ears! I'm only fighting you two so strongly because all you're saying is "lol that won't work" and not offering anything constructive as a substitute, citing that the job shouldn't have it at all purely because the nature of the lore, instead of trying to come up with how it might work within the lore. YOU put some imagination into it. I've already spelled out how it's imaginative: it doesn't homogenize the caster role, it nullifies the MP issue, the swiftcast issue, the long cast time issue, the "rez dispenser" issue, and the balance issue all in one fell swoop. If you have something better to suggest, I am ALL ears.

Remedi suggested maybe a pre-raise ability, I also read somewhere maybe give a buff to the healer allowing their next raise spell to cost zero MP. I don't like these quite as much because there's a "middleman" involved unlike the other casters, but it's a start. I do like the idea of more "passive" buffs on the job, that would mean it is better without any real rotation/skill change required, and by that logic you might even agree with me.

Feel free to check out my page, if you're concerned with my abilities as a caster, and yes, a CASTER MAIN. I'm a wise enough player to realize that if BLM is not the smartest choice to bring, then I'm not going to bring it; that's not only being selfish but shooting my group in the foot. This is the very issue that needs to be fixed, preferably in the form of increased damage, increased mobility through reliable procs, and, you guessed it, recovery tools (including access to Raise). Or, if they feel like nerfing recovery tools across the board, then no problem; BLM doesn't need it. But the undeniable point here is that BLM is lacking recovery tools in a role that has access to the most important of all of them, and it's a dilemma.


Also, since we only started talking, I'm notorious for editing my posts after I've finished them, I apologize for forcing refresh so much.

[GaitSpiff]

Alright Llugen, here's a few "BLM Raise" suggestions I thought of that fit the theme and elemental distribution of the class.

"Extension of Soul": Health cost: 5%; Effect: Raise; Background: "Through further mastery of your body's destructive power, you've found a way to tear off a portion of your strength and bestow it to a fallen ally."; Cast Time: 5 Seconds.

"Thundrous Rally": Mana Cost: All; Effect: Raise; Background: "Through exploration of the effects of lightning, you've found a way to expend your energy and restart the humors within an ally from a stopped state."; Cast time: 5 Seconds.

"Caress of the Cold": Mana cost: 8% * number raised; Effect: AOE Raise; Background: "Through further study of the art of preservation inherent in Ice, you discover a way to revive others after a burst of direct cold shocks their system."; Cast time: 4 seconds + 1s*#to be raised.

And with that, you could use the first option as a method to enhance the damage of others for a similar cost.

My problem with the idea of an oGCD raise is that oftentimes it could be misunderstood by healers if the raise is available and if uncalled, that raise, which has a bigger downside compared to the others' at a 180 second cooldown, could easily lead to the healers calling for a raise that won't come because a healer used their raise on the same target as the BLM (which happens regularly regardless). I feel my first option nullifies the MP issue (though overuse could kill the BLM), my second covers the chain-res issue, since it could also be limited to require the actual full mana cost instead of just having a minimum still-usable value (since like others have said, a mana-costing raise would probably be used in Umbral Ice), and the third would give a more unique raise option than the previous.

I do agree passive buffs being added would help, though not in all aspects. After all, in Heavensward we saw what having too many addendums early in the leveling process in terms of traits looked like. I would personally like to see something more along the lines, for healers, of a trait that reduced, for each in order: WHM should have a 1/5 cost and cast time reduction for every raise cast shortly after a previous within a 30 second period, capping/resetting after the fourth raise (which would put it down to roughly 2 seconds and 40% of the original cost, making them best at chain resing); SCH should have a different raise that can only be cast once every two minutes for an aetherflow stack that raises with a 8% max health shield (so they have a mana-free option that still uses an important resource and makes them better for tank resing); and AST should have a trait such that upon Ascention, the equivalent to either an AOE Spire or AOE Ewer effect would be on the player, based on role (to give a more resource minded raise for raising healers and DPS that may've just used recovery options from other raises).

[Dualgunner]

Nobody forced you to join your static, the only one responsible for your poor wittle feewings is you.

This is below the belt. He is on record saying that he bullied himself into running as jobs he didn't want to run for prog; he wanted to be the greatest asset he could be to his team. It's a sentiment I share, and why I hate the current place of RDM because it creates a "for prog" comp and an "after prog" comp.

I don't think anyone's harassing or trolling here save one Llugen, and that's the one pointing fingers.

The closest thing to trolling I've seen is Prism's jab at Llugen. Other than that, it's two people who are passionate about a job finding their passions at an impasse and trying to reconcile their ideas for where the job should go from here.

I'm not "hiding" behind any argument, if anything it is y'all who are "hiding" behind your staunch "it's against the lore, muh splosions".

The class fantasy of BLM is "muh splosions". I think it's perfectly fair that they do argue that they want that class fantasy preserved. I find it a bit similar to your concerns about reduced cast times making BLM too much like RDM or SMN; it goes against the class fantasy.

The issue and reason class fantasy is even brought up is of course because the devs have stated that they prioritize class fantasy; I believe they said this in the SMN Physick v RDM Vercure issue.

Also, this notion of "hiding" I find silly; like I said earlier, I see two people passionate about a job trying to reconcile their passions for the direction they feel the job should go.

To add a bit to the debate: let's say Black Mage does get its 180 second cd raise; what is stopping progression parties from still saying "Go RDM/SMN for progression, one raise every three minutes isn't enough"?

To people against the raise: what would be a happy compromise you would accept with Llugen's idea? Because he has a good point: BLM being selfish is not conducive to the endgame raiding environment. Could you suggest some other utility BLM could bring? One idea that comes to mind for me would be some sort of groupwide manaward, as it is a spell they have in the game so it defies no class fantasy, and it is a defensive ability with the hope of preventing deaths from happening in the first place, so it could aid progression in some way.

[Llugen]

Cool, I'll take it. Here's the deal with life cost, though, there's a precedent on it being removed, with the weakness adjustment in 4.0. They felt like it was unfair that the healers had to suffer so hard from players having weakness (therefore needing extra shielding for things like mega holy and gigaflare), which is why VIT is no longer affected by weakness only main stats. Side note: Extension of Soul sounds like a perfect candidate for the Book of Thal, making it a level 60 spell. Bravo.

I would suggest toying with an idea that is like the BLM channeling his own energy to the dead target, but that really does remove BLM uptime, which a lot of players would dislike, including myself. Losing one Ruin II/III on SMN for a Swiftcast + Raise is far less significant, and then one Veraero/Verthunder GCD on RDM isn't the end of the world (though it is bigger).


See, this is also why I feel like the recast off-GCD is a stronger suggestion; costing the BLM all his MP means less 'splosions, which (contrary to what you all seem to believe about my stance) IS VERY IMPORTANT. Particularly since BLM uptime right now is the strongest part of its damage, this would be a very large hindrance. It's nice thinking, though.


@Dualgunner: Nothing is to stop them, per se, but it's still better than NOTHING. How many times have you been in a group with a BLM and both healers die, and everyone shrugs and says "well, time to wipe. Sure wish we had a RDM right now." Definitely has happened to me more times than I'd like. Save it for just when both healers die, if nothing else, during prog. Again, we don't want BLM to be a rez dispenser, could you imagine Triplecast + RaiseRaiseRaise? Yuck.

[Dualgunner]

Would a 60 second cooldown on this ability work better, do you think? That way BLM is at least in line with SMN's ability to raise.

EDIT: Yeah, triplecast raise would be disgusting lol.

[Remedi]

Ye, we can imagine a triple raise but then you would be helpless to the next mechanic, which is very similar to losing all your MP as a cost.

Frankly we lived till now with both healers diying = wipe and it is only recently where this feeling of needing a safety net exploded so much health penalty or not. TBF I would also argue that both healers diying should be considered a failure state and idd a wipe raise or no raise.
The implications of now that if a healer dies before heavensfall towers, gets a raise, holdes it till towers explode (which usually leave 1-2 tank alive) uses the raise and then LB3 healer the whole raid it's really silly to me, something like that shouldn't be possible.