Why Does It Feel Like Poor Play Is Acceptable (I'm Venting.)

[HyoMinPark]

@OP: mostly because there's no way in hell I'm going to accept being held to the impulsive standards of my fellow online gamers because they've frequently shown their inability to not sperg out at the drop of a hat.
They want a baseline, assumptive "standard" to expect from people. . . .Historically the bulk of them have shown a habit of hyperbolic expectations, reactions, and perceptions of things.

...why the hell would I ever consent to being held to any of your standards, random elitists on the internet? why would I ever trust you to restrain yourself when concocting an excuse to not take groups on an individual basis? . . . .meeting your standards is as unnecessary as the content you want to police my performance in.

Not to be rude or anything, but it’s highly ironic that you’re talking about elitist attitudes when your post reeks of its own type of elitism....

if you do look at the OP's examples, everything is a pretty exaggerated scenario. exceedingly basic, shorthand examples with few details and particularly bad practices. these players do exist but the examples are pretty hyperbolic.

I’m not sure how much you have frequented the OF, but I would highly recommend reading The Tales of the Duty Finder thread. While they’re all personal experiences, I feel like the thread probably does a decent enough job of proving that the types of players OP has mentioned in his opening post do exist—probably in larger numbers than you think.

If you want more quantifiable examples that are not a personal account, I would suggest just browsing the lowest percentiles on a certain website that everyone here loves to hate. People dislike parses and logs, but they certainly don’t lie.

[spagthetapdancer]

Not to be rude or anything, but it’s highly ironic that you’re talking about elitist attitudes when your post reeks of its own type of elitism....

"Distrust" is the impression I was going for. I don't trust people who make hyperbolic judgements enough to allow them to hold me to their standards and you shouldn't either. that goes for my standards as well, you shouldn't allow yourself to be ruled by what I consider acceptable. You have no reason to trust my judgement and I have no reason to trust yours so any of us demanding that the other does is as good a reason to throw the other in the trash as far as I'm concerned.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/n...eply&p=4518489
I’m not sure how much you have frequented the OF, but I would highly recommend reading The Tales of the Duty Finder thread. While they’re all personal experiences, I feel like the thread probably does a decent enough job of proving that the types of players OP has mentioned in his opening post do exist—probably in larger numbers than you think.

If you want more quantifiable examples that are not a personal account, I would suggest just browsing the lowest percentiles on a certain website that everyone here loves to hate. People dislike parses and logs, but they certainly don’t lie.

I don't frequent the OF and I don't really plan to. I was here reading on another topic linked from Reddit(which I also rarely browse). I'm well aware of these players as I've been a moderately active tank and healer in DF for about 3 years now. but they're easy examples and neither you nor I have any real idea how common they are.

as for FFlogs, the only thing I truly hate about them is that the site compiles my information from other peoples' parses. if the site only showcased the data of the player that uploaded it I'd have zero complaints. it's purely a privacy thing.

Congratulations. You have joined the cavalcade of people who lacks basic reading comprehension skills. The OP went out of their way to make this thread as diplomatic as possible, yet you're one throwing around insults. How ironic.

I also didn't realize asking people to press 1-2-3 in sequence required some additional skillset unique to "elitists." I suppose the advance steps will be adding 4-5-6. Wouldn't want to make it too difficult.

Edit: Fair enough on your apology.

I'm just the "quick to get heated, quick to cool" sort. I also have some pretty big attention span problems(like lists X_X). I can make quick judgement calls so tanking/healing has been my main thing over the years, but dpsing oftentimes calls for an outright 18 skill opening rotation that I literally cannot juggle all in order. that was one of the reasons I couldn't play HW WAR and played PLD/AST/SCH instead.

[HyoMinPark]

"Distrust" is the impression I was going for. I don't trust people who make hyperbolic judgements enough to allow them to hold me to their standards and you shouldn't either. that goes for my standards as well, you shouldn't allow yourself to be ruled by what I consider acceptable. You have no reason to trust my judgement and I have no reason to trust yours so any of us demanding that the other does is as good a reason to throw the other in the trash as far as I'm concerned.

The standards I hold myself to and the standards I hold randoms to are as different as night and day. I am far more critical of my own performance than I am of other people’s, unless they start talking big. Then I expect them to have the performance to back it up: if you’re going to talk like your the big man on campus with tons of orange parses under your belt, then I want to see proof that you can live up to what you preach.

My most basic standards vary depending on the content I am in, but generally, in casual content, I expect:
—tanks to hold hate, use their stance (if applicable), and to know their most basic 1-2-3 aggro combo
—healers to heal (and if they are a veteran healer decked out in Savage or high ilvl gear, I expect some juggling of DPS and healing), and not stand around idle for the majority of the duty
—DPS to DPS (I don’t care too much about their rotation [barring examples of things like Ice Mages or BRDs that don’t use their songs], and I don’t expect some optimized opener making use of every oGCD/food/pots or whatever, but I had better see some AOE in a large pull—nothing grinds my gears more than DPS refusing to AOE a pack of 7-8 mobs)

In things like farm parties for Extremes/Savage, my expectations are a little higher. I do not expect orange-parse levels of play, but I do expect a certain level of competency when it comes to completing Extreme/Savage content. If the party is for a farm, I expect the party to farm the fight quickly and efficiently—especially if their PF advertised “fast, quick runs; high DPS; no mistakes or kick” (ironically, it’s usually the PF leader doing the lowest in terms of contribution, and making the most mistakes). I also do not appreciate when people enter into farm parties having either never cleared, or cleared only once and just expect the rest of the group to carry them through the content. You want to farm? Then please pull your weight like the rest of the group.

I’ve asked this many times in the course of this thread, and have never received an answer that was not some illogical tangent or analogy, but what exactly is it about asking players to do the absolute bare minimum required of their job/role that is some incredibly high standard?

[spagthetapdancer]

The standards I hold myself to and the standards I hold randoms to are as different as night and day. I am far more critical of my own performance than I am of other people’s, unless they start talking big. Then I expect them to have the performance to back it up: if you’re going to talk like your the big man on campus with tons of orange parses under your belt, then I want to see proof that you can live up to what you preach.

My most basic standards vary depending on the content I am in, but generally, in casual content, I expect:
—tanks to hold hate, use their stance (if applicable), and to know their basic 1-2-3 aggro combo
—healers to heal (and if they are a veteran healer decked out in Savage or high ilvl gear, I expect some juggling of DPS and healing), and not stand around idle for the majority of the duty
—DPS to DPS (I don’t care about their rotation, and I don’t expect some optimized opener making use of pots or whatever, but I had better see some AOE in a large pull)

In things like farm parties for Extremes/Savage, my expectations are a little higher. I do not expect orange-parse levels of play, but I do expect a certain level of competency when it comes to completing Extreme/Savage content. If the party is for a farm, I expect the party to farm the fight quickly and efficiently—especially if their PF advertised “fast, quick runs; high DPS; no mistakes or kick” (ironically, it’s usually the PF leader doing the lowest in terms of DPS/healing, and making the most mistakes). I also do not appreciate when people enter into farm parties having either never cleared, or cleared only once and just expect the rest of the group to carry them through the content. You want to farm? Then please pull your weight like the rest of the group.

I’ve asked this many times in the course of this thread, and have never received an answer that was some illogical tangent or analogy, but what exactly is it about asking players to do the absolute bare minimum required of their job/role that is some incredibly high standard?

I think you've listed some fine standards there. that's what I would consider a fairly realistic expectation from most people. it considered more than one context, and it's not exaggerated at all. I am just more concerned with not being subjected to a douchebag's inflated expectations and will throw as many corpses under the bus as I need to to protect myself from those douchebags, collateral damage or not.

I'll just cut to the chase and give you an honest answer. you could be a reasonable person the entire time and it wouldn't matter. I'm not trying to protect myself form you. I'm trying to protect myself from douchebags, just like people in the OP's position are trying to protect themselves from having weird or negative experiences with particularly clueless players.

[Awha]

Snip . . .

For some (which is silly, when it comes to playing with other strangers. Though this goes into a deeper issue of respect for fellow players.) the baseline standard is tank should tank, a healer should heal, and a dps should dps. That is the baseline standard, anything beyond that is a expectation placed by the players not the game. Duty finder is random, the experience will suffer from massive variance swings, and trying to place individual player expectations on random players also suffers from such variance swings.

In an ideal world your standards would be the norm, but sadly that is not the world we live in, and honestly until SE does something about trying to facilitate play behind, tank tanking, healer healing, and damage dealer doing damage we will always have players that will stick to that mindset. Since the bare standard for SE when it comes to such content is not the same for many in the community. So our only option is to either try to vote kick players that do not met expectations, use PF and form a group that will met the expectations placed, leave the group or deal with it.

I mean I ran into a ice mage once, tried to vote kick him and the vote failed so I adjusted, it sucked and the run took longer then it should have, clearly that group had a different standard. Thankfully they are not the norm. Not trying to defend the behavior, nor agree I do see where they might be coming from when it comes to a community bare minimum. If SE does not enforce the same bare minimum what reason would another player have to listen to another player outside of respect for their fellow player. Hope you understand hard for me to explain it.