Either SMN and RDM should lose their Raise or BLM should get a Raise.

[Llugen]

Gonna say it again for probably the 20th time in this thread, you can argue with me all you want about the solution to the problem, but there is undeniably 100% a problem.

You say BLM doesn't need raise because it's a caster, then fine, it needs to be removed from the other two for role balance. This is also the title of this thread. However, we have no reason at all to believe they will nerf rez dispenser. So the more feasible solution is to put a raise option on BLM.


I don't care if Lulu is the exception or the rule, it's citable proof that the "black mage" has access to white magic/reimagining how the jobs can work. So don't stand there and say it's "set in stone the way it is" when it's not. Consider the Yuke race in the Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles series, they are the "black mages" with the highest magic damage, but it also makes the most sense to use cure and life on them because they also have the fastest cast time.

All I'm really trying to do is insist that you open up your (collective) closed minds and realize that maybe classes really can do things differently than they had done in the past (consider Kimari from FFX as well, a synthesized Blue Mage and Dragoon). I'm never going to buy your "the classes/lore never changes" argument, ever; there is plenty of solid evidence debunking it (SAM used to be a tank, now it's a DPS, DRK used to be a DPS, now it's a tank, SMN used to nuke with summons and epic spells, now it's a DoT class (which also nukes with epic summons/spells, but you get my point)).

The developers can justifiably do whatever they damn well please with whichever jobs they see fit, and there could be numerous ways to implement an ability that functions as a raise with a justifiable lore/backdrop that befits Black Mage (necromancy, arcane magic, "aetherial", void magic, the list could go on).

[EllieShadeflare]

Gonna say it again for probably the 20th time in this thread, you can argue with me all you want about the solution to the problem, but there is undeniably 100% a problem.

Yes, and this isn't that problem. As @Ceallach put it, you're asking a DPS job that needs to get better at DPS to get worse at DPS. This is the straw that broke Red Mage's back, alongside its already lack of DPS.

You say BLM doesn't need raise because it's a caster, then fine, it needs to be removed from the other two for role balance. This is also the title of this thread. However, we have no reason at all to believe they will nerf rez dispenser. So the more feasible solution is to put a raise option on BLM.

Red Mage NEEDS a potency buff, if anything. It's not viable for anything BUT progress, and that's a sorry state. However, just because a class shares a role/archetype DOESN'T MEAN THAT EVERYTHING NEEDS A SPECIFIC TOOL.

I don't care if Lulu is the exception or the rule, it's citable proof that the "black mage" has access to white magic/reimagining how the jobs can work. So don't stand there and say it's "set in stone the way it is" when it's not. Consider the Yuke race in the Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles series, they are the "black mages" with the highest magic damage, but it also makes the most sense to use cure and life on them because they also have the fastest cast time.

EVEN IF YOUR ARGUMENT IS TRUE, YOU'RE ONLY TALKING ABOUT GAMES WITH DIFFERENT RULES AND CONTINUITY. As far as Black Mage goes in FINAL FANTASY XIV, it does NOT fit. Please stop trying to use the flexibility of the series as an excuse.

All I'm really trying to do is insist that you open up your (collective) closed minds and realize that maybe classes really can do things differently than they had done in the past (consider Kimari from FFX as well, a synthesized Blue Mage and Dragoon). I'm never going to buy your "the classes/lore never changes" argument, ever; there is plenty of solid evidence debunking it (SAM used to be a tank, now it's a DPS, DRK used to be a DPS, now it's a tank, SMN used to nuke with summons and epic spells, now it's a DoT class (which also nukes with epic summons/spells, but you get my point)).

Samurai doesn't have much of an identity, only appearing in a few games. Dark Knight has always been tanky to a degree, and Summoner's identity has also been constantly shaky with the only stable thing existing being "summon a big thing or something related to it."

Meanwhile, Lulu still had to dig deep into Yuna's moveset to get her White Magic, so it's not naturally hers. Besides, it's still WHITE MAGIC. Not Black Magic. And there's no evidence that in FFXIV that BLMs are willing or capable of using White Magic.

The developers can justifiably do whatever they damn well please with whichever jobs they see fit, and there could be numerous ways to implement an ability that functions as a raise with a justifiable lore/backdrop that befits Black Mage (necromancy, arcane magic, "aetherial", void magic, the list could go on).

Guess what? The Devs have already set their lore in stone, and Black Mage... hasn't had a raise counterpart since... well, ever in FFXIV's history. And as far as we know, Necromancy is out of the question, void magic is something specifically being avoided by our Black Mages, Arcane Magic is not a thing for BLM, and "Aetherial" is still not an excuse.

[Ceallach]

Gonna say it again for probably the 20th time in this thread, you can argue with me all you want about the solution to the problem, but there is undeniably 100% a problem.

No one is saying there's no problem.

You say BLM doesn't need raise because it's a caster, then fine, it needs to be removed from the other two for role balance. This is also the title of this thread. However, we have no reason at all to believe they will nerf rez dispenser. So the more feasible solution is to put a raise option on BLM.

Summoner can get away with it because they don't use Swiftcast as a movement tool like black mage does, and because they do damage over time as a main mechanic rather than as fluff damage. Red mage can get away with it because they don't even use Swiftcast; Dualcast gives them spells in pairs already. There are also lore reasons, but you've already demonstrated you really don't care. Verraise and Resurrection existing is not a balance issue. Black mage doesn't get a variant for all the reasons I've already listed that you don't care about because you want the black mage to be able to do literally everything in the game. What's next, enmity gains for tanking?

I don't care if Lulu is the exception or the rule, it's citable proof that the "black mage" has access to white magic/reimagining how the jobs can work. So don't stand there and say it's "set in stone the way it is" when it's not. Consider the Yuke race in the Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles series, they are the "black mages" with the highest magic damage, but it also makes the most sense to use cure and life on them because they also have the fastest cast time.

All I'm really trying to do is insist that you open up your (collective) closed minds and realize that maybe classes really can do things differently than they had done in the past (consider Kimari from FFX as well, a synthesized Blue Mage and Dragoon). I'm never going to buy your "the classes/lore never changes" argument, ever; there is plenty of solid evidence debunking it (SAM used to be a tank, now it's a DPS, DRK used to be a DPS, now it's a tank, SMN used to nuke with summons and epic spells, now it's a DoT class (which also nukes with epic summons/spells, but you get my point)).

The developers can justifiably do whatever they damn well please with whichever jobs they see fit, and there could be numerous ways to implement an ability that functions as a raise with a justifiable lore/backdrop that befits Black Mage (necromancy, arcane magic, "aetherial", void magic, the list could go on).

And here's the real problem with your argument as a whole. You don't pay attention to anything other than what you want. If you wanted to cite a good example of a black mage healing, you should have chosen BLM/SCH from FINAL FANTASY XI, and even then you'd be debunked because literally all the healing came from scholar as a support job and how Light Arts worked. Your Yuke example is also a bad one because Yukes throughout the FINAL FANTASY Crystal Chronicles series were the best at magic as a whole, not black or white in particular. In short, do not argue lore with me; you will lose.

By the way, the only time samurai was ever designed as a tank was in FINAL FANTASY XI, and guess what? It was treated as a DPS instead and ninja became a tank. Samurai in FINAL FANTASY as a whole isn't even a real samurai. Real samurai limited their sword strikes to iaijutsu and fought hand-to-hand or with other weapons most of the time. Have you ever heard of aikido? That's samurai martial arts.

When looking at the black mage job as a whole throughout the series' history, they have literally only ever had support one time, and that was the Temper spell in FINAL FANTASY. They have literally never had a way to resurrect. Does that mean they can't? No. What it does mean is that it does not fit their job description. Not even the necromancer job resurrected anything. Does that mean they can't? No. Necromancy is already well-established in the lore of the thaumaturge class in this game. Black mages do not resurrect because their magic is inherently destructive, which makes things dead. Even reanimation would be something that a black mage would not typically do, no matter how far you stretch what lore we already have.

And that's without looking at gameplay, which you're so fond of doing, by the way. The black mage in FINAL FANTASY XIV is designed to be a turret. You stand in one spot and never stop casting. You have Between the Lines and Aetherial Manipulation to move, and you have ways to cast spells instantly for when you don't have those. That's it. You otherwise do not move. Moving is a DPS loss. Because of how Enochian works (lasts as long as Astral Fire/Umbral Ice is up), a black mage is required to continue casting Fire/Blizzard spells. If you're wasting time and a movement tool on a Raise variant, you could sacrifice your life and/or your major damage boost. That is not true of summoner or red mage because they do damage differently.

So, because we all know you don't actually care and just want black mages to do literally everything in the game, here's a short list.

• Black mages do not Raise in FINAL FANTASY XIV because it would make them lose most of their ability to do damage and/or move, which would typically lead directly to the black mage dying or losing Enochian.
• Black mages do not Raise in general because they've literally never had that ability ever.
• Black mages do not Raise without help from another type of magic, and even then that's magic that's not inherent to the black mage ever.
• Black mages do not Raise because black magic is inherently destructive, so justifying a Raise by "void magic" logic is nonsensical, not logical, especially because void magic itself is also inherently destructive.

The real problem with black mages in this game is just the fact they don't do enough damage, and the developers have already stated that that will be addressed in 4.2. If you really want the DPS Disciple of Magic jobs balanced, you should be okay with black mages doing the most damage and not getting a Raise variant, because then you have a choice between utility or more damage. Red mages need DPS help as well.

Summoner's identity has also been constantly shaky with the only stable thing existing being "summon a big thing or something related to it."

Actually, summoner has always been an offensive/support mage-type. I checked a while back for another debate.

[Llugen]

You don't pay any attention to anything but what you want, too. Having raise on the job literally won't even affect you, it will only affect those of us who will most likely be forced into playing SMN. Again. So don't pretend like you're somehow holier than me because you vehemently don't want raise on the job for absolutely selfish reasons (or meaningless ones) as well. To reiterate again, I don't even really want raise on the job, I want the role to be balanced, and raise on the job is the most likely scenario with which to achieve that. If said balance doesn't even affect you, then why are you arguing with me about it?


Also, you really can't use lore as your argument and then cite lore as your counter-argument, that's pretty circular logic (with regards to your suggestion that the different games have different continuities. Of course they do, but the point is that the FF series is not "set in stone" which is what was asserted before.)


And nope, try again. The devs have been "set in stone" about plenty of things that they have then switched stance on. One good example would be alliance raid roulette. yoship saying back in July (read: before savage/ultimate prog even began) that BLM doesn't need raise is practically irrelevant at this point, particularly if we as a community continue to assert why it is necessary to balance the role. They want (and repeatedly ask for) our feedback.


Furthermore, in case you haven't seen, there are about 15 RDMs that have cleared unending coil, and upwards of 30 SMNs. There are exactly TWO BLMs who have done it, and with neck-and-neck statistics with the RDMs that have. I won't say that RDM doesn't need adjustments (in my opinion, particularly to Embolden, but that's a topic for another thread), but you certainly can't say that it's less viable than BLM in any way, shape, or form.

[EllieShadeflare]

You don't pay any attention to anything but what you want, too. Having raise on the job literally won't even affect you, it will only affect those of us who will most likely be forced into playing SMN. Again. So don't pretend like you're somehow holier than me because you vehemently don't want raise on the job for absolutely selfish reasons (or meaningless ones) as well.

Having raise is a useless button that wouldn't help the class. I don't want more useless buttons on a class that's already stuck with at least four (Sleep, Freeze, Blizzard II and Scathe) and I do not think for a moment that having raise would make Black Mage better. We'd be the worst candidate for a Raise, because we don't have ANYTHING in our kit to support it, and it'd actually detract massively from our kit.

And nope, try again. The devs have been "set in stone" about plenty of things that they have then switched stance on. One good example would be alliance raid roulette. yoship saying back in July (read: before savage/ultimate prog even began) that BLM doesn't need raise is practically irrelevant at this point, particularly if we as a community continue to assert why it is necessary to balance the role.

You and a handful of people are the only ones asserting this stance. Nobody else. Alliance raid roulette was necessary because of new players trying to gear and get glamour and enjoy the story. But Raise simply can't work on a Black Mage, because it's a waste of a cast on a class that's already having a hard time prioritizing classes. It wouldn't fit the gameplay, the lore nor the theme of Black Mage.

[Llugen]

I read your sentence but all I can see is "Raise simply cannot work on Black Mage because I have no imagination". Notice how you say "waste of a cast" when I am a vehement advocate of it NOT being a cast but rather an off-GCD ability balanced by a long recast (which you might know if you actually read any of my responses), and your statement saying it wouldn't fit the gameplay is half-baked at best; hardcasting raise on SMN barely fits the gameplay either but it's still doable in an emergency situation, which is the very definition of progression, which is the whole reason why I'm arguing with literally everyone in this thread in the first place.


You gave no solid refute to necromancy, and only a weak refute to void magic and arcane/aetherial magic (note how the conjurer questline centers around the "unnatural" nature of resurrection, no reason that BLM can't fit right in). Seriously. Avoiding "void magic" sounds perfectly reasonable until we are able to control it, or what have you, see also: the devs can justifiably do whatever they want. This includes a raise skill on BLM.

[EllieShadeflare]

Edit: Discovered your edits.

I read your sentence but all I can see is "Raise simply cannot work on Black Mage because I have no imagination". Notice how you say "waste of a cast" when I am a vehement advocate of it NOT being a cast but rather an off-GCD ability balanced by a long recast (which you might know if you actually read any of my responses), and your statement saying it wouldn't fit the gameplay is half-baked at best; hardcasting raise on SMN barely fits the gameplay either but it's still doable in an emergency situation, which is the very definition of progression, which is the whole reason why I'm arguing with literally everyone in this thread in the first place.

Huh, I thought it was admirable to grow out of giving classes the first idea on the top of one's mind just because it's cool. Welp, I need to learn to adult better! [/s]

Even if it was an oGCD, it's still a terrible idea, primarily because Black Mages have to tunnel vision to keep their rotation. Black Mages already aren't a good candidate for Mana Shift, even if they have the ability to, what makes you think they'd work for rezzing as well?

You gave no solid refute to necromancy, and only a weak refute to void magic and arcane/aetherial magic (note how the conjurer questline centers around the "unnatural" nature of resurrection, no reason that BLM can't fit right in). Seriously. Avoiding "void magic" sounds perfectly reasonable until we are able to control it, or what have you, see also: the devs can justifiably do whatever they want. This includes a raise skill on BLM.

You are really stubborn, aren't you? Very well.

As far as the lore is concerned, we have no idea if Necromancers are even a thing. There's whispers, there's hints but there's no clear connection to Black Mage, or even possibility by Spoken. Throw that excuse out of the yard.

Meanwhile, Conjury and by extension White Magic are based on the will of the Elementals. Do not even think of using that as an argument for Black Mages getting raise. Throw that out of the yard too.

Arcane and Aetherial magic aren't hinted at either, and Black Mage is not built from that either. Out of the yard.

Shatotto has not been seen using Void Magic and nor has Lalai, our teacher. In fact, the Black Mages we all have fought and are "bad" Black Mages are Void Magic users, as if they're supposed to the an example of why Void Magic is a bad idea. (This includes the Defiant and Memeupo, the 1.0 Thaumaturge teacher). Hell, that's also why Mhach fell, the overindulgence in Void Magic. Even if Black Mages COULD use void magic, everything is against anyone on our side wanting to use it, period. The game has done NOTHING but show the harm of using Void Magic, from the Black Mages we've seen, or seeing the fate of Mhach.

Out. Of. The. YARD.

[Remedi]

You'd have the ranged DPS limitbreak in that scenario anyways. And if it's between the Summoner and the Black Mage, you're still going to have the summoner do it, because any caster based AoE damage during the ninja phase is fluff damage, and the black mage will kill the Giant more expediently.

Not really, when I was progging it with 320ish weapons in the raid a meteor was not enough to clear the adds in 1 shot so a tiny bit of aoe dmg was actually a help and I would not really consider it scumbagging

[Kabooa]

Not really, when I was progging it with 320ish weapons in the raid a meteor was not enough to clear the adds in 1 shot so a tiny bit of aoe dmg was actually a help and I would not really consider it scumbagging

I should clarify: Anything beyond 10% of the ninja's health is fluff damage, which a single Foul, Death Flare, or Ahk'mourne will cover. As Ilvl increases it's pretty much anything beyond 5%. It's 100% scumbagging to do anything more than that when the giant still has damage to deal, but to be honest, Hali, the Ninjas, and the Golem should all be within aoe range of each other, so you can 'pretend' to be DPSing the giant with flares.

[Remedi]

Just wanted to clarify because I thought that LB3 would be enough and then surprise!