Either SMN and RDM should lose their Raise or BLM should get a Raise.

[Remedi]

I really don't think a res is needed for the class to be viable in progression, Ultimate's first clear had MCH-BRD-DRG-NIN so no combat res from their dps and while they said in an interview how important RDM was for their progression, even if we get a res there is no way it would be as powerful as RDM's, meaning that if a group feel dps res is important they would still progress with RDM.

However if we do enough damage (either by pure super high personal damage or some kind of offensive utility) to surpass SMN people would try to fit the class in the team because in the end you need damage to kill the boss, just like happened on Ultimate's first clear where they used RDM to make progression faster but to actually kill they went with the physical meta because it just brings way more damage to the table and quite frankly if we do the damage we should be doing and your static bullies you into playing something else you would be better with another static.

I'm a bit torn on what Lucrezia said since they said they changed their dps setup to get the kill but allowed the DRK to stay DRK even though a WAR would've been better, it's somewhat a double standard for me but maybe it's just me

[Dualgunner]

A reraise would have some implications that come along with it. For instance, for a buster a tank has no cooldowns for usually War holms or pld hgs. Being able to cast a reraise on mt 15 seconds in advance... I can see a lot of parties taking summoners along just for a reraise to add to tank damage.

Definitely an interesting take on the concept of support.

[Neela]

A reraise would have some implications that come along with it. For instance, for a buster a tank has no cooldowns for usually War holms or pld hgs. Being able to cast a reraise on mt 15 seconds in advance... I can see a lot of parties taking summoners along just for a reraise to add to tank damage.

Definitely an interesting take on the concept of support.

yeah tank buster might be a point that was a question yesterday as well but like he said you would lose a massive dps-burst yourself in exchange for support. Mechanics like that would also give Blm the spot to be the brute forcer again, while smn has to decide whats more important grp utility or personal dmg. this way or another I think demi-primals has open up lots of options in balancing - cause they are not just a ocgd, but a whole sequence which needs timing and foreseeing and it would mirror the lore as well if they focus on them instead of ruin lvl xiv.... : /

[Remedi]

Reraise is gonna be a thing from WHM eventually and besides, as I said to LLugen, it's something that BLM could put a spin on it and borrowing the soulstones mechanics from wow (since they already borrowed demonic circle and backdraft from that class anyway)

[Neela]

you got a point with crossing the healers toolkits in the future but they have to separate at least Blm and Smn somehow again... to avoid perm dps adjustments between both of them. Personally my favorite time being a smn was the strict separation in Burst and AoE Kings. I wonder why they changed that cause I felt that was some way to do it right. Now they defintily need something else giving Blm his brute force spot back. Nobody likes way stronger smns than blms in rdps - so smn mostlikely have to be kind of hybrid with utilities to avoid Blms profession with the next lvl 80 skill finisher... or they could focus on egis but since the demi mechanic is way easier to balance than rework the pet system I doubt they will ever take their hands on them... : /

[Llugen]

Balancing the role down to remove raises completely would be theoretically fine, except that I don't see them removing rez dispenser any time soon (I've hashed this out with Remedi a few pages back). The role MIGHT be balanced if they remove Resurrection from SMN, but then you are almost guaranteed just going to bring RDM for early progression since it would then be the only one with raise, so it's kinda the same shtick.

A re-raise or pre-raise on BLM sounds like it would be a sort of acceptable option as well; anything off-GCD and recast related I would be a proponent of. Contrary to popular belief, I'm very open to discussing solutions, I'm just NOT open to "hurdurr your stupid muh 'splosions no rez plz yoship sed", which is the bulk of the responses to this thread.

Also, addressing the world first unending group, they are literally the best players in the game. They are the 1% of the 1%, and they spent probably upwards of 40 hours working in there practically nonstop. If they in particular don't "need" a raise, it is because they are S-tier players. The majority of the playerbase, hell, even the majority of the raiders (which probably makes up what 30% or less of the playerbase?) would still benefit from having raise in progression. Furthermore, they might have saved themselves some time having raise to see more mechanics, etc., but regardless, we are not all Lucrezia.

Also also, Neela, I am very capable of playing SMN, I just don't want to have to play it in progression. I play with my friends and I don't want to have to search far and wide for a static that will take BLM when it's crappy (or "stoop" to a lower level group, to be honest), I just want BLM to be a viable option during progression. I feel like that's really not that much to ask.

[Remedi]

They used RDM during early prog, they mentioned like doing 20 raises in a fight since they essentially brute forced it to see it, they switched to SMN and then to double ranged when they pushed for the kill, in their own words they said it would've required 2 more days to get it otherwise.

[zuzu-bq]

They used RDM during early prog, they mentioned like doing 20 raises in a fight since they essentially brute forced it to see it, they switched to SMN and then to double ranged when they pushed for the kill

People saying RDM is "bad" for prog now that SMN has raise really don't believe in this. Shh, don't speak truths. Might break their logic.

[Ceallach]

It remains to be seen yet if the blm "changes" will be of any value...

If 4.2 makes it so black mages do the most damage of the Disciple of Magic DPS jobs while still having no utility, I'd be fine with that. If they make black mages' DPS tie with summoner while adding a utility like making the party do more damage, I'd be just as fine. I would not be fine with black mages getting some variant of Raise.

We can definitely disagree on the correct solution(s) (including doing nothing), but there is certainly a problem.

The problem seems to be that you don't like the fact black mage is easy to play but hard to master, which is something that's true for most jobs in the game, Disciple of Magic or otherwise. As a black mage, what I've noticed are the required advanced skills for raiding would be knowing how to move while casting, knowing where to place Ley Lines, and knowing when to time your Fire IV spam. It really doesn't sound all that different from summoner, actually, because a summoner needs to know when to cast Miasma III and Bio III (or use Tri-Disaster), when to use Summon Bahamut, and when to use Dreadwyrm Trance. A red mage needs to know when to use Manafication, when and from where to use Corps-a-corps and Displacement, and when to use his weaponskill combo.

Just because BLM could use raise does not mean that it does not have other issues to be addressed.

I don't think you quite understand how those issues should be addressed in the larger scheme of things, however. Your statement that lore can be rewritten is not only false, it is flawed and disrespectful. You have to understand that this is FINAL FANTASY XIV, not FINAL FANTASY III. It's pretty darn late to be rewriting anything. Sure, you could slap a Raise variant onto the thaumaturge and call it necromancy, but that would not only not solve anything, it would also subject black mages to all the same problems summoners and red mages face in terms of how to use Verraise and Resurrection. Black mages are already meant to be the high-DPS turret job, and adding a Raise variant would make it harder, not easier for them to be that. I'd also like to note that the one and only time a black mage got a support spell was at the beginning, with the Temper spell in FINAL FANTASY. Black mages have literally been 100% straight damage and/or damage over time ever since. I checked. And even if you don't care about the series' lore, there's no denying that the red mage is more mobile than the summoner, and the summoner has literally always been more mobile than the black mage. That's how these jobs are designed for this game.

You can talk about the DPS Disciple of Magic role all you like, but you are not understanding it. We are DPS first and foremost. Red mage got Vercure and Verraise for lore reasons. Summoner got Resurrection because arcanist has it, and arcanist has it because it also becomes scholar (Physick follows this pattern as well). Our job is not to help with progression, although we can. Our job is high magic damage in short amounts of time at range. That does not mean you get to turn every DPS Disciple of Magic into a jack of all trades that's supposed to help with progression. You know what else helps with progression, in fact? Lots and lots of damage. If you're having trouble with a mechanic, bring a black mage and see if you can do enough damage to skip that mechanic entirely. A black mage that wants to routinely run raids like Deltascape V4.0 (Savage) should already know how to move and when to cast.

In short, you're literally just looking for a crutch to lean on when you ask that black mages get a Raise variant, and in doing so you fail to understand what black mages are.

[EllieShadeflare]

Really, the BLM doesn't need a raise because of the lore (am I talking series? Or talking ingame? I'm actually talking both!) and the fact that it would highly clash with Enochian and the almost tunnel vision required to play BLM to its fullest damage.

I mean, that's as far as I can go.