Discrimination of certain jobs - your opinion

[Miksu]

Thats just it though, why should people be forced into a job they don't particularly enjoy or like, because the hivemind decided that "we only want meta jobs"

Meta is a difficult concept to overcome in a game that relies on numerical outcomes. We do know that meta is the absolute peak perpetuated by the best players and theorycrafters, and that gives meta objective validity. It IS objectively the most reliable and efficient style of play.

However, the problem arises when the community perception overtakes the concept and applies it to everything whilst neglecting variables such as player skill, pool of players, content difficulty, etc. In a controlled environment (statics) with a clear objective, meta is the most efficient play.

[Miksu]

Furthermore, some of the blame lies with how the jobs are designed. As akaneakki referenced this issue, some jobs are just safer than others. If you fail as a samurai, you fail completely because you only bring DPS. If you don't particularly perform up to par as a dragoon, at the very least you are bringing up the performance of the rest of the group. Now whether the group can make up for the disparity of your DPS by breaking their limits (heh) depends, but the point stands. It is safer to bet on an average dragoon then it is on a samurai that can range from bad to godlike. Especially if the SAM curve is higher on the bottom end.

[AmaSagahl]

To be fair,there is a large amount of SAM players but majority are pretty bad at it. RDM and SAm is one of the easiest classes in game with less punishment compare to the rest. I don't mind a SAM in my group, but if I had to choose a 5k sam vs a 4,8k drg the drg would be easily taken over the SAM. Like some people mentioned already, samurai has insane aggro and has no aggro skill reset, elusive jump is so good for both uptime and aggro reset at the same time in certain fights. This helps the tank dps increase as well, since they mostlikely don't need to use aggro combo.

I disagree with your evaluation of job difficulty. A monkey can play RDM - it's by far the easiest job right now. Samurai on the other hand might not be as difficult as NIN, but you still can screw up your dps with a lot of little things (even overshooting your Kenki constantly by 5). It takes a lot of dedication, practice and knowledge to not just be average or good, but outstanding. Which applies not just to the Samurai job.

But again, we are kind of circling back to the point with what you are saying about the lack of utility and damage: If you want SAM to be an asset and as valuable as other jobs like DRG or NIN without giving it a buff, then it needs more damage. If I look at the fflogs of o1s I can hardly see a difference between SAM, BLM and MCH.

1) 6.367k (SAM)
2) 6.355 (BLM)
...
5) 6.264 (MCH)

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Just want to quickly answer this part first. NO.... I agree that they need a tiny bit of love, but you want a "utility" buff but without sacrificing any of your dps is asking way to much and would just continue the circle jerk of "meta" jobs.

The thing is, neither SAM nor BLM bring enough DPS to compensate for their lack of utility. In fact, BLM gets utterly decimated by SMN—being inferior at quite literally everything. SAM, meanwhile, does approximately 300-500 more DPS than DRG, who buffs BRD/MCH by that same amount, if not more. Ama is essentially arguing SE needs to commit one way or another. Either SAM/BLM get some utility and they wholly abandon the selfish DPS role or they buff their numbers to ensure they adequately compensate for bringing nothing to the raid except high damage. Until one of those two scenarios happens, people will continue to push them out.

[AmaSagahl]

The thing is, neither SAM nor BLM bring enough DPS to compensate for their lack of utility. In fact, BLM gets utterly decimated by SMN—being inferior at quite literally everything. SAM, meanwhile, does approximately 300-500 more DPS than DRG, who buffs BRD/MCH by that same amount, if not more. Ama is essentially arguing SE needs to commit one way or another. Either SAM/BLM get some utility and they wholly abandon the selfish DPS role or they buff their numbers to ensure they adequately compensate for bringing nothing to the raid except high damage. Until one of those two scenarios happens, people will continue to push them out.

I think you nailed it.
I doubt that SE is not seeing the problem - so my hope is that there will be some kind of change.

[AxlStream]

I want to start my post by a lil disclaimer. My static contains both BLM and SAM. We have cleared O4S with no intent to step into ultimate. Not as a lack of skills but as a lack of commitment.

With that out of the way, SAM isn't a job that's prefered. A SAM player has to consistently be on point to compensate his lack of damage buffs to the rest of the party (same for a BLM). This is even accentuated by the fact that we are in the farm point of the patch. Meaning survival utility is not desired as much (affects RDM and MNK). It's not discrimination to follow the player established meta. In many games, characters/jobs/classes live and die by the meta. This isn't a problem. Different jobs peak at different times.

Now on with PF. A player that posts their openings on the PF have any right to exclude a player/job they don't want to play with. It's their group, their rules and if you're not okay with that, he's free to kick you out and you are free to not join. As for the BL after your tell, that's going a bit far but in my opinion (and this is purely my opinion, you are free to disagree) sending a tell to the leader when you clearly don't fill his requirement is annoying. Like someone begging for scraps. Again, personal viewpoint there but I do agree, blacklisting goes kind of far. I would of just firmly turned you down.

Again with PF but for the players using it! PF players are a wonderful mixed bag. Like those jelly beans from Harry Potter, you might get wonderful Watermelon flavor one time and get puke flavor the other. Except in this instance, the odds of getting vomit are quite high. Higher end players don't need PFs, they have a well established social circle of likely minded player who like to aim for the same goals and push performances to their limits. That's fine but it does leave out everything under them to mix it up in PF and knowing the average of the community has problems following complete rotations on top of mechanics the numbers aren't as high. This leads to damage utility having more of a value. I'll explain. A PF Dragoon player is always preferable to a PF Samurai. Why? Because as long as the Dragoon knows to hit Battle Littany, Dragon tether(don't know the name of that one) and apply Piercing debuff, he's done his job utility wise. He'll boost others numbers the same ammount independently than his own performance. Meanwhile, a SAM is less favorable as this safety net is non-existant. There is nothing redeeming the greedy DPS archetype in this setting. Because of this a SAM is seen as a bigger risk than a DRG.

BLM suffers alot from it's design and it's own memes. A BLM is unmatched DPS, as long as it's allowed to cast non stop and doesn't have to move through an encounter. It has more utility than SAM with Manashift, Addle and Apocatastasis. Again, survival utility, not damage utility. Their supportive skills are less desired. The big problem here is the encounter design in Trials and High End content. Always a lot of movements required. Just really doesn't play in the favor of the BLM. This in turn, pushes BLM into a higher skill ceiling and makes the job less impactful for the PF level of play. Also you always have those "healers adjust!" BLMs that... just nobody likes...

People don't look at past parses unless you go into Savage/Ultimate generally. So stop playing FFlogs as this boogeyman just being behind the scenes that ruins all your chances to get a group. People just don't care that much.

Now with all of that said, is job balance perfect? No, of course it isn't but it's at a pretty good spot to keep things going forward. All you can really do, is apply yourself to learning and mastering your jobs to squeeze out the max out of them and make a name for yourself across your data center to be a great Samurai or change mains to increase the need for you in PFs. Up to you really.

Also can we stop throwing the word elitist around? This is becoming a new buzzword like LoL's toxic. Empty of all sense and meaning. Following a meta is not being "elitist". It's just following the Most Effective Tactic Available. Can't blame players for wanting to max out their chances. Like solo PLD tank Zurvan PFs late HW... RIP WAR mains then...

[AmaSagahl]

....People don't look at past parses unless you go into Savage/Ultimate generally. So stop playing FFlogs as this boogeyman just being behind the scenes that ruins all your chances to get a group. People just don't care that much.

I am not really sure what you are saying, I have no intention to 'play fflogs as boogeyman' - I just don't have a high opinion of it, except for training and improvement purposes. I never had anyone look up fflogs for a freaking o1s run. But that's beside the point, it didn't have to do anything with Samurai being not as valued as other jobs and my experience with raiding via PF lately.

Now with all of that said, is job balance perfect? No, of course it isn't but it's at a pretty good spot to keep things going forward. All you can really do, is apply yourself to learning and mastering your jobs to squeeze out the max out of them and make a name for yourself across your data center to be a great Samurai or change mains to increase the need for you in PFs. Up to you really.

How does this statement apply to the fact that the 'max' of the Samurai is not really far away from other jobs, other jobs with utility, regarding to the Savage logs?

What is bothering me is that you seem to be particularly addressing me with the majority your points (and by the way you didn't even read carefully, I got never blacklisted and no one kicked me out of a group) instead of just sticking to the bigger picture.

[AxlStream]

How does this statement apply to the fact that the 'max' of the Samurai is not really far away from other jobs, other jobs with utility, regarding to the Savage logs?

Even in savage clears, Samurais have highs and lows, accentuated by the fact it's now unlocked and PF quality has gone down. Meaning the average Samurai has gone down as well. Be above the average samurai and take it a notch higher by being above the average player. I know it's unfair for a job to have to work more for such little benefits but that's what is demanded out of Samurais. To compensate for their lack of utility, which in PF levels of play, is very achievable.

[AmaSagahl]

Even in savage clears, Samurais have highs and lows, accentuated by the fact it's now unlocked and PF quality has gone down. Meaning the average Samurai has gone down as well. Be above the average samurai and take it a notch higher by being above the average player. I know it's unfair for a job to have to work more for such little benefits but that's what is demanded out of Samurais. To compensate for their lack of utility, which in PF levels of play, is very achievable.

As far as I know, no Samurai ever cleared o1s higher than 6.3k (or maybe it was 6.6k, I can't remember), and that is being overfed with buffs (the meta comp everyone is mentioning + pots/food). You can correct me if I am wrong.

[AxlStream]

As far as I know, no Samurai ever cleared o1s higher than 6.3k (or maybe it was 6.6k, I can't remember), and that is being overfed with buffs (the meta comp everyone is mentioning + pots/food). You can correct me if I am wrong.

And nobody out in PF is asking for that. You need to beat the average PF player's Samurai. Not the top tier, hyper buffed Samurais. Make your Samurai play worth picking over another random PF random and be known for it. If you still can't get it, I'm sure someone else can explain it to you better than I can. I might not be getting my point across as I am not a native English speaker.